Tagged With "Ownership"

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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
For comparison of the 20% niche network tax - consider Uber. Uber also charged 20% (I believe it might now be 25%). But Uber drivers don't have to bid against each other to lease a license to drive for Uber. And that tax/fee is substracted from each fare, so the driver will never reach the end of the year facing a big bill to the company that could end his activity if he comes up short. I think a good test of fairness here is for someone, anyone, whether team member or Founder or general...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
Its for more complex than that Harj! Nobody knows what can potentially be made. Nobody. There are several interconnected problems here, and your comment only addresses the shot in the dark that is the initial punt, by urging conservatism. What about niche leasees who rock their niches, but one year come up against financial hardship, and can't pay the fee in time to keep the niche?
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Harj ·
Malka you must take this all into consideration when you bid on a niche dont pay more than you can potentialy make bro :I
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
You are right - it IS the cost of doing business. But that can be said of legitimate costs, and excessive costs, and of good business propositions, and very bad ones. The hot dog stands give you a ready made clientele. Uber gives you a ready made clientele. Narrative, for us pioneers, does not. We're supposed to go out and build our clientele ourselves, and Narrative will benefit from it. I think the least we can ask in return is more reasonable renewal fees than a full 20% of earnings. Like...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Bryan ·
Hey @Malkazoid I appreciate your thinking on this. It definitely feels a little cart-before-the-horse to be discussing Niche management/ownership with no place (yet) to manage it. It's also a little eerie to be getting glimpses of a project at such an early, might we say pre-natal, stage. There's still a lot of formation that still needs to happen. And, this thing will evolve over time. Regarding the 20% fees, I look at that as the cost of doing business. If you make $1000, you pay $200 for...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Bryan ·
One more thought: I agree on the nomenclature. "Ownership" is a tough pill to swallow if it has no properties/entitlements of ownership. I've always suggested "Manager". Also, we hire rain-makers on commission. They go out in the world, their own wits as their only resource. Everything is percentage-based. They make a sale, they get paid. Only, usually the values are reversed. We take 80% and they keep 20%, with bonuses for incentives, etc. The rain-makers don't go out under the guise that...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Bryan ·
I hear you. Business expenses aren't all rosey-cheeked. I think one difference re: the Muddy-River-Bank-Hot-Dog-Stand-For-Streets-Yet-To-Exist-Proposition ( and henceforth let it be known by no other name !) still works if one doesn't have to pay a fee if they don't make any money. 20% of nothing is still nothing. If one is paying $20,000 USD in NRVE for their Niche, that means they made $100,000. So, they keep $80,000. My efforts will be to minimize how much of that goes to taxes. I don't...
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Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
I want to be excited, I really do. But the Terms of Use before accessing Chaucer were a bucket of cold water. 20% niche renewal fee That means if your niche makes more than 375 USD in the year, your fee will become 20% of your yearly income for the niche. Lets call this something more descriptive than a "renewal fee". It is a tax, and a very significant one at that. Remember we'll have to pay taxes to our governments on our income for our niches too, AFTER the Narrative has taxed us 20%.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
I'm glad you're here too Bryan. There are levels of deception - not everything is an outright lie - right? The term 'niche owner' has continuously sent the wrong signals to my brain, and I think it has fuelled what is probably a deluded sense in me that at some point, the project would align with the words it chose. I think the level of comfort others might have with this comes from a sad acceptance that real ownership is perhaps becoming a privilege of a shrinking class of people in our day...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
I will read your clam articles, but I agree that won't pay your bills... Rainmaker, or manager would be perfect. Look, I don't necessarily want to rob folks of their rose-colored glasses. I guess I'm just expressing my lack of them. In any other circumstance, if someone offered me this sort of paradigm and tried to tell me it is ownership, I'd consider them a scam artist. But here, because of the romance of a new world that we can 'found' together, and because of the charming 'mom and pop'...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Bryan ·
Yeah, there is still room for improvement! And, I've always opposed the term "owner". But, because I haven't ever thought of it as "ownership", I've never thought of selling it, or passing it on to my kids. Which I do have... (ungrateful little— ) Where was I? Oh yes, clams. No, Niches! So, the only thing that troubles me (if I think about it a certain way) is this: If I cultivate/manage a Niche into prosperity, I can acclimatize to the Niche fee that I'll have to pay every year. As the...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
Wow, very heated and passionate discussion, and I agree: the business model is not good. All these disclaimers and hidden rules, plus the ridiculous fees that one has to pay... I am quite disappointed of the project so far, and everything I read make me feel worse about investing so much in it. One is already forced to bid for one's own Niche ideas, which is unfair (and could end up being super expensive, IF you get the Niche.) Then you have to build it from the ground up, gain traction,...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
Or maybe we should get 8-9% return on our Niches instead of 10%, and not pay any fee/tax at all.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Kyle Kidd ·
I just changed my mind on that after re-reading Bryan's above post. There is definitely a benefit to paying no fees at all during the final year of operation if planning to discontinue the niche.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
Exactly. Like Uber. So there is never the jeopardy of not being able to afford the renewal during a difficult financial year. Otherwise every year we'll lose good niche managers (I refuse to call them owners anymore, it is doing my head in), simply because they hit a rough patch. Owners that will feel ripped off because they potentially paid, at auction, multiples of the one year revenue in order to take up the lease. Imagine it is year 5 and the network is well atteneded. Imagine you bid...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
From what I understand, both. It is part of the revenue of the site, so gets split up between the team and the network rewards fund. Consider the following claim of Narrative: That rings true at first when you initially hear 85% of revenue goes back to users. It does not ring so true when you realise you don't own the niches you 'buy', rather you lease them. You have to pay the 20% of niche revenue back to the network every year. That definitely makes the network a middleman, and it changes...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
That's quite a tragic story, @Malkazoid . Can there be a mention of a sweet puppy to make it better?
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

ClosetCrypto ·
@Malkazoid First off I have always appreciated your well thought out and articulated posts and I hope they will continue! I am still processing a lot of what you have said but I did want to try and get some clarity on the claim of double taxation. My understanding is as follows: I'm a spreadsheet guy I don't see an issue with niche owners retaining 80% of the rewards generated by their niche. Niche owners get paid based on the popularity of their niche hence why it is a rewards system.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
Yes, you buy a puppy for your brother to celebrate his remission, and he calls the dog Niche... which he finds fitting because he holds him on a leash.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
The sarcasm! You would fit great on my Niche, @Malkazoid (well, if nobody outbids the heck out of me, guided by blind greed.)
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Ted ·
I'll add my two cents on this... The "Owner" Term We can debate whether niche owners should be called "owners" or not and we certainly have no problem considering other terms if everyone thinks it is not accurate enough. The reason we chose "owner" is that the owners are receiving revenue from their association/role with the niche. I think Bryan suggested using "manager" instead, but that is also a bit problematic because that might imply that they manage the actions/content in the niche,...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
I'm actually not all that sarcastic by nature. It is the flaw of niches not being owned by their 'buyers' that is bringing this out in me. It is a flaw at the centre of this great journey, and I believe it could be a fatal one. Another network won't make the same mistake, and people will flock to it instead of Narrative. I know I will. Projects get leap-frogged all the time in this mushrooming digital era of tech startups. To stand a fighting chance of growing into the sunlight of this...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
I second @Malkazoid with everything he says, specially this: " Narrative pitches a 'niche ownership' to users which involves 'buying' at 'market price' through auction, but is in fact a lease, holds no accrual of capital gains, cannot be sold by the so-called owner, gets taxed at 20% by the network, then taxed again by the government... and can be de-activated for any reason. " I have expressed already my concerns and, later on, disappointment of how this, once great idea, is becoming a...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Bryan ·
I'd like to encourage (and at this point, I think we're all still in this together) that what's happening here is iron sharpening iron . I think it's important for @Malkazoid and @Eduardo Hernández to continue to share what they see as barriers to Narrative. It, I hope, helps clarify thinking. For example, "owners" is problematic for reasons stated above. I have often suggested "managers" but @Ted clarified that it will actually be the moderators who do the managing. So, what's the...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

ClosetCrypto ·
I see what you mean here @Eduardo Hernández but you could always just publish each episode to your journal. You have complete control and ownership of that.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
Excuse me, @Bryan : Eduardo's Warm Embrace™ , please. But, jokes aside, I think you made a breakthrough that definitely should be considered by the Team. There should be a feature that allows us to buy a Niche OTC (over the counter) at a predefined price (say 1,000 NRVE). The only requisite being that it's unique, non-generic (ex. Cryptocurrencies) and comply with the rules of the platform. Bang! Everyone is happy now. I say this because I wanna publish my book in episodes in the platform,...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
I know, but as an author, I prefer the seriousness of one specific space for each publication.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Bryan ·
I was going to suggest Brands but this wouldn't quite scratch the itch @Eduardo Hernández is talking about. For starters: So, if Eduardo is publishing under his own "brand", how would he generate revenue on Narrative? Would it just be through the NRVE donations by his readership? The whitepaper does go on to discuss Content Creator Reward Overrides (p13) and sets up a plausibly-analogous hypothetical scenario to what Eduardo is requesting, I think?
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Rosemary ·
@Eduardo Hernández what you're describing is going to be called a "Brand Channel." That's exactly what that content space is for...situation where you have a particular publisher, brand, company, or other commercial enterprise that wants to host content on the platform.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

ClosetCrypto ·
Very understandable. You might also look at the Brand feature and see if that might be something worth doing. Start your own publication
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Ted ·
Content creators earn the biggest chunk of revenue and brand channel authors earn revenue like anyone else. The reason that brand channel OWNERS do not participate in network rewards is because they have autonomy over the management of their channels - they appoint their own moderators and can control who can actually post to their channels. I would suggest that you start new topics if you want to introduce whole new subjects. Will make sure each question has its own focus.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Emily Barnett ·
Hmmm …ok lots to unpack here. Like some others here, I see some faults in the approach that has been presented after investment…but I am trying to view things from all perspectives. I don't like to be critical for the sake of it, but rather to help build the best thing possible. Most of us have money is in this thing, that means we are all the team now. I want Narrative to succeed. It's that simple. I am going to use an analogy, which equates owning a niche to owning a retail business. I...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

ClosetCrypto ·
So although the Brand Owner Eduardo would not receive reward income, the content creator Eduardo would for posting.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Emily Barnett ·
Thank you @Eduardo Hernández . Years in business has sharpened my diplomatic skills a little. Also I never thought anyone here was being toxic. I just needed to preface my own intentions. This is a super small community...I suspect all of us invested financially, coding, promoting, buying niches, and offereing constructive criticism will be here for as long as we can be...this is a really weird thing. First of all it is really democratic. But secondly, it's like we all just showed up where a...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
Kudos, @Emily Barnett ! I can see that you are the female counterpart of @Malkazoid we needed in our forums. You and your diplomatic, yet insightful views are very helpful and welcome in this discussion. Just to make things clear, though, I really want this platform to succeed, and my criticism comes from a good place, with the sole intention to make this happen. I hope I don't come across as harmful or toxic. Although yes, I acknowledge that all these mixed messages and lack of transparency...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Emily Barnett ·
@ClosetCrypto thank you for that clarification. I guess the confusion comes in that this was not listed in NICHES where the renewal fee is first brought up. Why put it under a different heading? I thought I read all of the white paper but I must have missed this one sentence that refers to the the 20% of income. Clearly I am not alone, so I don't think it was communicated well...even if you did read it. But your point is taken. And still to my point. Prices are not a fluctuating thing based...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

ClosetCrypto ·
I still do not fully understand why there seems to be such confusion. I personally believe the Organization has been as transparent as can be reasonably expected and I do not see how the renewal fee of 20% can be described as being unfair when you are retaining 80%. The organization has basically built a "shopping mall" where every "customer" has the ability to receive income simply from constructive participation. On top of that we are being given an infinite amount of possibilities for...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Eduardo Hernández ·
I beg to differ, Emily. For what I've seen, we are mostly just financing the vision of the Team, and we have little to no influence, so far, in what's being built. This is factual information, for what I have seen until now.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Emily Barnett ·
@Eduardo Hernández Fair point.
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
Hello Emily, I follow your reasoning all the way through until the above paragraphs. As I detail in another thread, I support full ownership of niches, with the ability to sell them on, potentially for a profit above the price you once paid at auction, if the platform has become more popular and/or you have grown your niche enough in size and quality for it to be generating more activity. The ability to see capital gains through one's efforts is one of the primary, fundamental reasons why...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
Hey Bryan, Awesome - I've been meaning to get to answering your thoughts on that! Thanks for reiterating them here: gave me the perfect opportunity. I hear you. I think you may have expressed something akin to what I'm about to say already - if so, please consider this an endorsement of your expression! Niches that overlap with brand names are a special case, so it makes sense for a different process to be applied to them? I have not been considering them in my analysis partly because I am...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Bryan ·
I dig the first quote—we don't want to become Pop Content. The problem I have with the second (still) is that Narrative can't let you "own" a Niche called "NFL", or "NY Yankees", or "Nike".
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Emily Barnett ·
@Malkazoid I have to get ready for an event so I cannot give your post the attention it deserves before i properly respond tomorrow. But i will say this. If someone wants to open a store and sell lets say neon green balls, they may not have a lot of walk in traffic. It is up to them to go out and find all the people who love to own neon green balls. the rent of the store for green ball guy should be the same as the rent for the store that sells shoes for instance, which has a lot more...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

ClosetCrypto ·
I’m on my mobile so excuse shortness and typos. i may be confused but I believe niche owners all share the entire 10% pool allotted to niche owners out of the 85% allocated to the community. For example, The 10% allocated to niche owners is worth $100,000. That $100,000 is divided between all niche owners each receiving a portion based on the popularity/reputation of their respective niche. So a niche owner is getting paid off of all niches where’s they are only paying 20% of what their...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
Enjoy your event! Don't give up on outright ownership. One of the team members has said it is being considered for the future, if I'm not mistaken. I think it may have been @Michael Farris . If something is crappy, we should not settle for it. Another Content Economy will crop up sooner than we think, and get this right, and then our investments in passion, time and money will all take a serious hit. True ownership is a FAR simpler and more effective solution to the problem you are trying to...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
I think that's right? First year, I think with the current plan, $75 minimum fee applies. Yes, 20% of the previous year's revenue is likely to be less than 20% of the current year's revenue. But growth in all years is not something to be counted on, especially once Narrative reaches whatever its market saturation point will be. My take is this fee is simply not the best solution for the network. A flat, nominal fee like $75 or $100 dollars, plus charging a commission when niches are sold at...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
The 20% was never mentioned on these forums until very recently, and I get the feeling it was not in the Whitepaper until fairly recently as well. I read the white paper perhaps five or six weeks ago, and that would have jumped out at me. But it is possible I missed it. I couldn't tell because I did not download the older white paper that I read. Anyway, the important point is that several times, a $75 dollar minimum was stipulated in conversation, WITHOUT stipulating the 20%. The 20% is far...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Ted ·
You should definitely feel free to debate the pros and cons of renewal fees for niches, but I can tell you pretty confidently that we have no intention of changing that model. I say that because it sounds like you under the (false) impression that it is something we are talking about changing. IMO the renewal fee requirement for niches is a very fundamental part of the model. It helps to ensure that every niche has at last some minimal amount of value. If a niche is not worth the equivalent...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Brian Lenz ·
Let me present a slightly different mental model for an identical fee structure. Perhaps this will help the hang-up people are having with the 20% niche renewal fee. At least one of the concerns has to do with receiving a niche renewal bill at the end of the year and not having the NRVE to pay it. This scenario is similar to under-withholding your income tax on your paychecks and having to pay the tax man at the end of the year. Poor planning and hard times are certainly scenarios that can...
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Re: Chaucer Terms of Use - need some help here

Malkazoid ·
Why a fairness problem? One pays at auction far more for the bigger niche than someone who buys a much smaller one. That's all the fairness a free market has ever needed: why would this be different? But the core issue is ownership... That's the part I'm interested in understanding: why you feel a leasing program is a better way to go despite the time-tested benefits of allowing real ownership.
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