Tagged With "abuse"

Topic

Trending Photography appeal

Malkazoid ·
Hello @Brian Lenz Thanks for your vote on this appeal. I just wanted to discuss it with you a little bit because your comment on your vote did not sound like you were taking into account the systemic ramifications for accepting niches as unique because they have 'trending' added to an otherwise pre-existing niche. Your comment was: I of course see the distinction you are making. There is such a thing as a trend in any domain, and it is distinct from timeless or classical...
Question

How we deal with complaints/takedowns

Malkazoid ·
Hello! I'm coming at this question from a particular bias, so I'd like to explain that first. In my experience, complaints and takedown policies on other platforms like Facebook and Youtube are routinely abused by spiteful people and people who in fact only disagree with the content, rather than find it inappropriate. The reason this works is because those platforms sometimes remove the content first, and ask questions later. This forces the content owner to go through a process that can be...
Suggestion

Stop abusive downvoting: announce future measures now

Malkazoid ·
Problem Right now, the only tool we have against abusive downvoting, is the higher weight given to high rep voters. We are observing this is not sufficient against abusive downvoting circles, who seem to carry enough weight to cause real, malicious damage. If you require explicit examples, I can provide them privately. The influence of rep on voting weights is not linear at all, but seems to be quite exponential. While this could be pushed further and further, we also could run into the...
Conversation

Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
So I just keep it short because someone asked. And I know it's been issued before. I just sent my last article; https://www.narrative.org/post/there-will-be-blood And it received immediate downvotes in less than 3 mins! and it's just 7 people. I think there is an abuse going on the platform. And somehow some automation, like a bot. If you want to know more and track those 7 downvote you can check this post, which my post refered to it; https://www.narrative.org/post...ehold-the-screenshot...
Suggestion

Lets add the downvote reason field to Low Quality voting, too

Malkazoid ·
This may feel like a familiar suggestion: previously this field was requested in a suggestion, for AUP violations. Almost immediately in the comments of that older suggestion, people chimed in that this reason field would be very helpful for Low Quality downvotes also. The Team has since implemented the field for AUP downvotes only. In order for the Low Quality downvote reason field to remain in the ticket queue, this ticket is probably necessary explicitly for that functionality. There has...
Reply

Re: Trending Photography appeal

Brian Lenz ·
Hi @Malkazoid , First and foremost, Merry Christmas! I totally understand where you're coming from. If the niche was "Trending Photographs" then I would agree it's problematic. As named, Photography Trends doesn't have the same connotation in my mind. I do realize that the description mentions "Trending photos" which I think is sub-optimally described, but not inherently flawed to warrant rejection. I see very little risk of someone posting pictures of their cat to the Photography Trends...
Reply

Re: Trending Photography appeal

Erik Blair ·
I think the problem is one of succinctness, scarcity, and potency. If we allow endless variations of 'main topic' niches, then anyone could create 5 niches that were similar using the main topic niche and various qualifiers as prefixes, suffixes, and subtopics (ie. Oakland Trends, Oakland Now, Oakland Tomorrow, Today's Oakland, Our Oakland). Domain names are a reckless example of this. I understand having 'enough' or the 'more the merrier' niches create a higher revenue model and broadens...
Reply

Re: Trending Photography appeal

Malkazoid ·
Hi @Brian Lenz ! Indeed, Merry Xmas - almost the end of Boxing Day now - to you and yours! It has been a very relaxed one here! Your post does help me understand how you reached your conclusion, thank you. My concerns remain, and I think your post acknowledges where the rub is, without, I think, realizing the importance of it: So there are two problems that compound each other. Photography is already widely synonymous for photos in people's minds Even without the description, many, and...
Reply

Re: How we deal with complaints/takedowns

Robert Nicholson ·
This is a tricky area, because the site must comply with the DMCA in order to qualify for the "safe harbor" provisions. However, the full DCMA process also includes protections for the content poster. (1) When the site gets a DCMA takedown request, they provide notice to the content poster... including the information provided in the initial takedown request. (2) The content poster has the option to file a counter-claim. If they do so, the counter-claim information is sent to the person who...
Reply

Re: How we deal with complaints/takedowns

Malkazoid ·
Thank you @Robert Nicholson - that was a very informative response. I'm wondering if you have any notion of how the DMCA applies, or does not apply, to non-US based entities. Many of the contributors to Narrative will be from other jurisdictions. The most recent encounters I have had with abuse of the takedown process involved Japanese citizens on Youtube. People making spurious complaints against conservationist content critical of the whale and dolphin hunting in Japan. It was great that...
Reply

Re: How we deal with complaints/takedowns

Robert Nicholson ·
@Malkazoid You do not need to be a US citizen, or reside in the US, in order to file a DCMA takedown request. And under US law, copyrights under the laws of (most) other countries are valid here. Even though I, as a content poster, might have limited recourse against a foreign complainant, once I file a counter-notice, the original complainant has a limited window under which they MUST file a lawsuit, and the site is free to repost the content without assuming legal liability. So simply...
Reply

Re: How we deal with complaints/takedowns

Malkazoid ·
Thanks again - great info. It sounds like perhaps the only domain we might be able to improve upon the stances adopted by other sites, might be the notion of transparency. If there are no legal hurdles to identifying complainants publicly, this might be dissuasive of deliberate abusers. Tracking them internally so we can become aware of serial complainants, and affect their reputation accordingly, might also help. Of course low reputation on their account won't prevent them from filing lots...
Reply

Re: Stop abusive downvoting: announce future measures now

Garden Gnome Publications ·
I like the idea of a fine for certain violations. If Narrators lose rewards and rep for certain AUP violations, plagiarism, and abusive behavior on the platform, they'll think twice before engaging in such behavior.
Reply

Re: Stop abusive downvoting: announce future measures now

Malkazoid ·
Agreed. The design of the platform means we don't have many measures to ensure a good environment. The design choices are sound in many respects but they do cause limitations. Reputation and Narrative Rewards are probably our best incentives both to reward network-positive actions, and to address network-negative actions. As in any economy, if we don't make bad actors pay for the damage they cause, we will operate at a deficit.
Reply

Re: Stop abusive downvoting: announce future measures now

Vico Biscotti ·
The first issue we have, in my opinion, is that reputation has now little to do with good conduct, nor with quality metrics. So, it's easy to have high rep actors who are not just contributing with real value and willing attitude. If reputation is our first tool to fight abuses, it should be better designed (it's on the roadmap, but it should be urgent). The second issue is that we should want to stop abusive voting, and this should be clear in communication. Abusive voting (both up and...
Reply

Re: Stop abusive downvoting: announce future measures now

Malkazoid ·
I'd love to see more ways in which we can address this - I don't doubt that there are others. Prevention is important... but in this instance, I believe having a process to address the abuses is a very significant part of prevention. Every society contains elements who only behave appropriately because there are negative consequences for them if they don't. I completely agree that our current system of reputation does not adequately include all facets of network-positive behaviour, and does...
Reply

Re: Stop abusive downvoting: announce future measures now

blueeyes8960 ·
This is a good suggestion that can do much to stop the abuse. I hope it is acted upon. If there are no consequences, the bad behavior will grow and continue.
Reply

Re: Lets add the downvote reason field to Low Quality voting, too

Garden Gnome Publications ·
To be honest, I thought this was already suggested. I'm ambivalent about it actually, but I don't have any real good reasons for opposing it as long as the downvote remains anonymous.
Reply

Re: Lets add the downvote reason field to Low Quality voting, too

blueeyes8960 ·
And the comment has to be required or it will serve no purpose. The malicious downvoter could just opt not to respond and that would be the same thing we have now. I also think that this comment for a downvote will be USEFUL to a narrator to see a legitimate reason as to why the person downvoted you. Most people don't want to leave the reason in comments because then it would no longer be anonymous. And I also thought this has already been suggested, but it doesn't hurt to show support again...
Reply

Re: Lets add the downvote reason field to Low Quality voting, too

Malkazoid ·
@Garden Gnome Publications , @blueeyes8960 - thank you: I've updated the ticket for clarity.
Reply

Re: Lets add the downvote reason field to Low Quality voting, too

Garden Gnome Publications ·
I'd also like to add that, since April 2, the launch of beta, there has been chatter about why people are downvoting posts. Whether justified or not, a reason for downvotes has been an interest from every corner of Narrative. People generally ask for downvoters to make their reasons known in the comments, but, as @Malkazoid pointed out, people are reluctant to do that because it takes away their anonymity. On the other hand, a text box will allow downvoters a way to let content creators know...
Reply

Re: Lets add the downvote reason field to Low Quality voting, too

Vico Biscotti ·
I'm not a fan of this but, at the same time, I'm not against, especially if not mandatory. I get that downvotes are a much more controversial topic, still, upvotes given for no reason out of voting circles are MUCH more. If those upvotes are not called abusive, then also downvotes shouldn't be a matter of discussion, in my opinion. Anyway, "it forces the introspection" is a valid point, for me. But I also like the suggestion from @Garden Gnome Publications , of the option to let the author...
Reply

Re: Downvoting Abuse

BloggerKrunal ·
I think we've enough proofs to prove that abuse of voting is getting aggressive now by looking on both the posts and its comments. We must have to ban such abusers on immediate basis now.
Reply

Re: Downvoting Abuse

Vico Biscotti ·
We have clear examples of owners defending their well known upvoting circles on their niches. And we have nothing to prevent this situation. Sadly, that's what's going on.
Reply

Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
I don't know, it was supposed to be power in hands of community. But for now it's in the hands of evil I guess! Because no one has power to stop this bad conduct! And Narrative HQ is busy for now on gathering resources!
Reply

Re: Downvoting Abuse

Fiona ·
I do not believe that we will ever get away from people who cannot agree to differ and who will abuse the tools at their disposal. I do think, though, that there needs to be mechanisms for dealing with them. I am not sure how, and I need to read up a bit more on the governance issues, so I hope the tribunal will help. I like the concept of the freedom of the play pen. I also recognise that it's the 80:20 principle coupled with high reputation that makes this all quite a conundrum. The other...
Reply

Re: Downvoting Abuse

MOLLY O ·
@hgn66 . Unfortunately, the original post incited passion which has caused both upvotes and downvotes. Your post which refers to that post may have resulted in some down voting as well. Earlier this week, we addressed that we have not seen any significant issues with voting circles or downvotes. This Cupcake Screenshot post may have riled some folks up. We will continue to review and collect data on voting, voting blocks, down voting, etc as we continue to refine the reputation model. Right...
Reply

Re: Downvoting Abuse

Christina Gleason ·
@MOLLY O I don't think any of us would be calling people out for bad behavior if we could see that there were negative consequences for those engaged in bad behavior. My screenshot post was triggered by a giant bubble of frustration that exploded in an inadvisable way. But...that's how meltdowns work. IRL, I lose the ability to speak during meltdown...but I don't lose the ability to type. Which...can be unfortunate. I dislike having public meltdowns, and I've edited some of the inflammatory...
Reply

Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
Dear @MOLLY O I totally understand you can't do anything because Narrative is just gathering resources and USDs. If you really have read my post you should understand I just pointed to that post as an example, and my intention was to lead this argument to a greater good. (Funny, I was thinking about Narrative while wasting my time!) They just downvoted all comments on that post, and then without even reading my post (I received first 5 downvotes in less than 30 sec, which completely is...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
Well @Former Member (sorry I'm not sure how to tag someone here!) It was my first thought to start a downvoting war... But a second later I just thought what's the difference between me and them if I go do the exact thing? I wasn't even going to talk about the issue here, but someone asked me and I did it, because I can't talk about accepting community if I don't believe it! At least the people here can now work on platform with more insight. And you know what's funny? I got this replay from...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
lol another wave of downvotes on my post.. how lovely it's getting by now!
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
@Former Member I was not criticizing anything, it was just an example, metamorphic, or anything like that! I'm not concerned anymore, this is what it is, I already said that on @Christina Gleason post, we can't blame anyone, because it is supposed to be moderated by ourselves. So if it's like this, it's kinda our choice!
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Malkazoid ·
The wisest words I've seen in the thread are those mentioning the lack of consequences for abuse. As soon as the platform has a convincing mechanism that overtly deters abuse, all of this will go away. In fact it would probably go away if the Team would just message about the fact that it is in development. It is the perception of inaction of the Team that is causing the actions to become more virulent and escalate. @Christina Gleason admits her reaction was over the top, but that's not an...
Reply

Re: Downvoting Abuse

blueeyes8960 ·
How is having @hgn66's post receive 5 downvotes within seconds of being posted NOT abuse of the system? If a post is downvoted by a GROUP without even being read first, then every comment downvoted - what would the Tribunal's definition of abuse be?? The answer cannot be to bury our heads in the sand like ostriches and hope the issue goes away.
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
Dear @Malkazoid I kinda have respect for you. While feeling pain and frustration from your words, there is still hope in there... I'm not that high rep or even a month old on Narrative! But we all know what's going on here... @MOLLY O said it loud and clear: In other words better to fuel the ship while we have pirates, abusers here. Let's forget about the fact while this community grow bigger, these abusers will also grow and spread. We just need to grow!
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
Dear @blueeyes8960 I'm not a a professional developer, but I think it's really easy to track those act... They just rather ignore community and let us deal with it! But can you fight a dragon with a spoon?! While you have no control on what's happening, it's like a sad joke. I think reading all replays can clarify the exact problem, I'm now sure it's not downvote abuse!
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Malkazoid ·
Exactly @blueeyes8960 - there are a lot of reasonable folks here, but at some point, you have to consider you're being played for a chump when you're told 'nope, no abuse'. 'No abuse but we're working on a fix to reputation'. a) if there's no abuse, what are you fixing? b) please, for the love of Narrative, stop trying to fix everything with the algorithm alone. Making the text field is far more expedient and will almost certainly be more efficient as a deterrent. The Community offered this...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
Maybe they are dealing with some perfectionism problem, they don't want to do small things and want to have a boooom moment! That's why they don't do anything at all! I hope this brilliant moment happen before it's too late! @Malkazoid @blueeyes8960 @Former Member @Vico Biscotti @Fiona @BloggerKrunal @Christina Gleason @Serroc @shreyas1599 @MOLLY O
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Slaz ·
This is currently a huge problem indeed. One of my comments recently got downvoted and buried as "Low Quality" by 6 different accounts just hours after posting it. And while the comment didn't add anything to the fierce discussion at hand, it was merely meant to bring some harmless friendliness into the comments section of @Christina Gleason 's post while remaining on-topic. If the owners of those abusing accounts wanted to discourage engagement on the platform, then well, they are starting...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Fiona ·
I like your suggestion @Slaz . For two reasons - one is the simplicity. The other is if someone disagrees, s/he must say so. However, based on my experience on Steemit and other social media platforms, it is often these individuals who are incapable of agreeing to differ and who indulge in bullying and other nefarious tactics. This is why, in my original comment, that there need to be constructive mechanisms for identifying these accouns (and the individuals behind them), and dealing with...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Malkazoid ·
I still see the utility of the downvote, but with every passing day that the Team denies the abuse problems, and actively resists messaging clearly that abusing the downvote is a violation of Acceptable Use, I am becoming more and more in favour of its removal. I think the downvote is quite central to the way the @Narrative Network Team have designed the Content Economy. It actually serves a purpose if insincere voting inflates the visibility and rewards of certain content, it allows others...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Nuno Moreiras ·
Apologies, I have just entered this discussion so disregard if the suggestion below was mentioned before. I completely agree with what @Malkazoid expressed above and how the dv abuse frustrates newcomers and old users alike, but I am not certain the functionality should be removed entirely, for it serves a purpose. So as a temporary and easy fix against automatic bot upvotes and downvotes, hoe about setting a captcha safeguard? Prove you are a human and then cast your vote. I also agree with...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Slaz ·
I don’t think any of the recent abuse was caused by any bot, just voting circles formed by Narrators that think alike on certain subjects. I agree that the downvote can still work if Narrative is given the time to grow. Right now, the amount of (voting) Narrators on the platform is low enough to allow a small circle of 5 or 6 high rep Narrators to become an unstoppable force. That shouldn’t be allowed. The ‘wisdom of the crowd’ can only be applied if there is a crowd, and right now Narrative...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
Dear @Slaz , @Fiona , @Malkazoid and @Nuno Moreiras ... While your discussion about the nature of downvote button is really good and inspiring, I should just remind you one thing. The main problem here isn't even downvoting abuse... It's the big ignorance of Narrative team about any problem with that... If it even comes to changes, there will be some problems again. As long as Narrative team ignores these issues we will face lots of things like this. So maybe we should first ask them to hear...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Malkazoid ·
Agreed. The Team is aware of the importance of feedback. I think the problem is more in their workflow. They spend 8+ hours together every day of the week, meeting and working in sync with each other, reinforcing their reality centred around a vision they haven't had much luxury to question or adapt since the Alpha began. During that time, they've devoted some energy to interfacing with the Community through the Community Support site, and very occasionally, in platform comments - so they...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Malkazoid ·
From messages from lead developer @Brian Lenz , I'm fairly convinced the Team is using the same rationale: if the financial viability of the post isn't being affected, people will settle down. They also have denied, semi-convincingly, that the visibility of a downvoted post is harmed by abusive downvotes. The fact is, blue star posts get better featuring, and you won't get a blue star if your post is getting heavily downvoted. But the real point is that these facts are somewhat immaterial.
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
Dear @Malkazoid Thanks for being aware of this psychological effect. As far as Narrative team look into every issue as a financial and economic problem, situation like this will persist. I don't think anyone on this specific issue was concerned about rewards after that abuse, but all this discussion is about abuse itself... And I have bad feeling that with this approach Narrative can't keep up to the rivals! While Steemit has shaken hands with Medium, the two giants on this kind of social...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
@Former Member I'm looking forward for those podcast, I would like here something more than just: I would like to see some insights.
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

Malkazoid ·
I need to look at what kind of connection there is between Steemit and Medium. That would be a real blow for Narrative, as people have had the sense this project would result in material more suitable for Medium, than Steemit's. I suppose their deal is not exclusive, and other platforms may be able to build a similar relationship with them tough... To be fair to HQ, @MOLLY O has participated in this discussion early on. But odds are she has missed most of it judging from how early in the...
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Re: Downvoting Abuse

hgn66 ·
@Malkazoid Steemit is just promoting itself right in the middle of Medium! And they just openly asked for Medium to step in the business with them! And about HQ notification, I think that's exactly why they are avoiding this discussion! Because they have already used their ticket, that copy pasted response to this concern (as they did on other posts), so now everyone is looking for real answers because one simple issue turned into this engagement from users. So maybe they rather stay away...
 
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