Tagged With "lose users"

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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
Thanks for this clarification. Until only a few weeks ago, and for several months after niches were suggested and purchased, Publications were called Brand channels , and there was truly no clear definition of how niches would or would not be organisable. I've been asking for clarification on that point for a while now, and some of it is now coming to light. I'll comment further on that when I get to the part of your post that brings the new clarifications. I feel like you're not taking into...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
After the extra input from other community members, and a bit of time to think about this further - I see the situation in perhaps simpler terms. First - what was clear from communications from the @Narrative Network Team , what was not clear from them, and what probably needs to change. What was clear It has always been clear that niches would be public posting areas where everyone can post. It has always been clear that Publications (formerly Brand channels), allow complete control over...
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On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Dana ·
I'm curious how the Team envisages an Owner might lose ownership of a Niche (aside from not making a renewal payment or selling it). The White Paper states: It's unclear to me on what grounds The Tribunal might agree with the Niche patrons. Could it be a matter of an Owner's unbecoming behavior toward the community? Or the Owner isn't putting in enough effort to support the Niche? Or-- and excuse the silly example, but it can be extrapolated-- let's say I am the owner of the Cats Niche but...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

chrisabdey ·
I would think it would need to involve something that violates the terms of service or abuse of power. Example: One huge problem Steemit has is "flame wars" and "flagging wars" wherein people downvote or set bots to downvote content just for the sake of downvoting. Because they don't like the person, or don't agree with the person they intentionally sabotage the content. So, in the case where a moderator is simply weeding out content because of that they would petition the niche owner to get...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Ted ·
Hi @Dana - there is an intentional separation of powers between niche owners and niche moderators. As such, niche owners have no impact on the content in a niche- they are not permitted to have content management powers in their niches. This is why we have a completely separate role for moderators, who are always elected (and thus held accountable) by the community. For this reason, niche owners can only lose their niches if they fail to pay the renewal fees. There is no mechanism for the...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
Hello Ted, The problems with this approach remain unaddressed. What's more, there is a very straight forward fix to the risks of owners having influence over content management. The Fix You mention that all moderator activity is transparent, so we should not fear moderator abuse: the community can take note of it and vote a moderator out. By the exact same token, if an owner had some degree of influence on content management, their actions could be completely transparent also, and there is...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Mark Horler ·
I think @Malkazoid 's explanation here is detailed enough (and entirely accurate imo), that I'm not going to duplicate that here. What I have been thinking about is the bigger picture on this. Essentially, what we are discussing here is a system of checks and balances. I see similiar themes developing across various discussions (not least my thread on a withdrawal function for niche suggestions). That's to be expected as what you are trying to create here is essentially a democracy of sorts.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Ted ·
Hi @Malkazoid - Nice owners can certainly attract content creators to their niches. They simply shouldn't be self-appointed moderators in them. If you want complete control over your realm, then a publication is the way to go. With a publication, you have complete control over your area and can even moderate/edit it yourself, if you like. That is actually one of the main reasons why we will support publications. The niche owner will have some powers within the niche, but moderating content...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
Yes, I agree. Please everyone: know that my aim is only ever to try to get my feedback, whatever it is worth, to help the kind of healthy exchange we need to have to succeed. I'm on nobody's side but Narrative's, and the potential we all see in it. If I ever come across differently, please do let me know as it is not my intent.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Mark Horler ·
Then why are you putting them up for sale? With respect, you have a fundamental contradiction here imo. Either they are public resources, in which case they should be either owned by narrative, or preferably by the community itself. OR they are privately owned resources, available either wholly or partly for public consumption. I see where you're trying to go with publications, and complete editorial control. But if that's the case, there's naff all incentive for anyone to own a niche, when...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Banter ·
I really do feel like there needs to be a hybrid model, because even with 'Publications - formerly brand channels', the model was that the owner didn't get any rewards, but had control, or if they did want rewards, they basically had to flow all content through themselves. I really do think the ownership model of Niches should include the ability to organize and feature content. This is why unfortunately the whole content piece of Narrative has been a black box to everyone and we have all of...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Emily Barnett ·
So here is the thing @Ted ...Narrative is starting to look very different than what the white papers stated, pre-ICO and post ICO, which seems very unethical. "Again, if your goal is to be a publisher, in the traditional sense, where you choose your team of writers, moderators and editors, then you should be owning a publication. Niches are just different beasts." Ya. So when I bought my 5 niches for a lot more $$ than people are paying for them now, there was no such thing as...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Emily Barnett ·
Also, there is a huge difference between a moderator not editing content, and giving cart blanche to the community to post on niches. I want leading authorities on a topic to post on my Niches, not someone who has no clue about the topic but rather just sees dollar signs in their eyes, and decides to whip up some mundane or derivative content, to which my moderators must publish it (in an unorganized constant stream I might add), simply because it conforms to my topic. Niches were never...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Dana ·
Thanks for the clarification @Ted ! I was hoping as much (that I couldn't be usurped for no reason). And I do appreciate the transparency of moderation. As a long-time Redditor, I believe almost everyone there has been shadowbanned or 'suffered' at the hand of moderator abuse with absolutely no recourse, so I think this alone will attract a lot of people from Reddit. I'd be lying if I didn't say I'd like a little bit of influence in my Niches, even if it was just 'look-and-feel', but I get...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Dana ·
So full disclosure, I'm Canadian and used to existing within private/public grey areas. As such, I respectfully disagree with your last statement. It would be GREAT for me if I controlled my Niches, but the community is better off if I don't. The reason for me to 'own' a Niche is that I get 10% of its earnings... which is just fine with me. I see Publications as an opposition to my Niches, which is fine, but I think most Narrators will understand the inherent bias in Publications and flock...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
I'm in complete agreement with @Emily Barnett and @Banter . I bought niches because I knew I could bring in high quality contributors. That's what we are all being asked to do. I realise now that @Narrative Network Team doesn't understand what the act of doing so actually looks like. You can't approach non profit social media directors, authors, widely published political journalists and commentators, and propose that they submit their valuable content to a fledgling network where their work...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
I'm happy with Publications existing, and Niches existing, side by side. It has always been clear that Publications (formerly Brand Channels) would allow complete control, but bring no network rewards. What has not been clear is that niches would essentially have no control at all. I note your personal satisfaction with earning the network rewards due to niche ownership. But this goes way beyond personal satisfaction. It goes to the success of the network as a whole. If niches are an...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
I too hope that Redditors will appreciate Narrative for the ability of the community to be involved in moderation! I just think that as is so often the case, the pendulum is swinging too far in the other direction right now. In our rush to be the solution to that problem, we're going to run headlong into other problems - which we're outlining at length here, with the hope that the Team will heed them. @Mark Horler went to the essence of it: we need a system of checks and balances, not a...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Mark Horler ·
Yeah, I'm from the UK, so I know that such grey areas are usually simply excuse to extract wealth from a public service, rather than that wealth being reinvested in the improvement of the service. But look, all of this is beside the point. If you just want to be an investor, and so get a return on your investment, then that's your shout. But then why bother owning niches? You could just invest in narrative itself, and so get your ROI from the profit made by the platform as a whole. If you...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Mark Horler ·
Ok, so putting together what I'm reading in this thread (and elsewhere), here's three statements of how things seem to be: 1. Niches will not be curated. We will instead have what @Malkazoid neatly describes as a content soup . 2. There will be no sub-niches, so we cannot have a hierarchical structure of related content either, further enhancing the soup effect. 3. Niche ownership is simply a financial model for investment into narrative, with no control over content given. If all three of...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Emily Barnett ·
@Mark Horler I think your summations are right on point. Niches seem totally irrelevant to me under these new paradigms that @Ted has recently begun to point out on various community threads. Narrative is no longer on track with what it states in the white pages. Furthermore I see very little commitment from the @Narrative Network Team to their initial commitment to the value of quality. I now own 5 "Steemit-like" niches or better yet lets just call them "Tag Place Holders". And if i want to...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Emily Barnett ·
@Dana Hi @Dana . I am Canadian too, i don't see how our nationality has any relevance to this discussion. It neither gives credence, nor does it provide an authoritative contextualization to your opinion. I disagree with your statement that the community is better off without input from a niche owner. I came to Narrative because Steemit has very little mechanisms to filter through the plethora of content that is so mediocre, to find some gems. Niche's were the answer, a gift to the community...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

mrgoodsett ·
If we don't like the way things are going, we always have the option to sell(send to the auction-see link below.) https://community.narrative.or...-to-re-sell-my-niche
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

mrgoodsett ·
And owners vs moderators=World War III.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Rosemary ·
Wow, lots of passion here. Which is a great thing. Also some confusion, misperceptions, and straight-up disagreements. It's pretty difficult to address every point in several pages of posts, so please forgive me if I miss something. Niches are, and always have been, "a subject area into which any Narrator may publish content." Since day one in the white paper , page 10, Niches have always been a place to find all of the content on a specific subject. That's why they have to be unique. You...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
Hello @Rosemary I wrote the most recent post here in order to try to lay out the very things you have just said, regarding what has always been clear. I wrote the section " What was clear " ( in this post ) in the hope that an answer from the team would not need to focus on that while ignoring what has not been clear, and what might benefit from changing. Your post has the merit of confirming that we agree on what was clear, but of course the important areas are the areas of disagreement.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Banter ·
Hi @Rosemary , I take issue with this analogy. A club promoter would never be able to promote if they could not highlight the DJ that will be featured at the club. This is the essence of what @Malkazoid , I, and others have pointed out. The current setup would be more like me promoting a section of a library because books exist there, and hey...some of them might be good so please visit, or send us your book to stock there! The team really should consider a hybrid model, where the owners...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
Thanks @Banter - it is reassuring to read that you've understood all of this. If we use enough real world examples, I remain hopeful the Team will get it and respond to the actual problems being underlined. The club/DJ example is spot on, as is the library one. I literally cannot imagine what an objection to this might look like. It seems to me that it strikes the right balance of power. The existing 'separation of power' as defined by the Team is in fact a denial of any power to the niche...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Jeroenski74 ·
Totally agree with @Malkazoid and @Banter , some of my niches will be totally useless without structure and is definitely not what I had envisioned. I really have to rethink the time of effect I will put into it. I know this is not constructive, so I will look into all that has been said about this essential part during my holiday and try to reformulate my feelings in solutions, but for now I'm disappointed.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Rosemary ·
Diving straight into what (I think) are the three primary questions: 1. Standards for Niches - we've already said there will be a way for Niche owners to communicate with their moderators privately. I see lots of interesting suggestions in this topic regarding how moderator standards might be documented and shared; we're always listening. 2. Moderators as curators - moderator behavior is subject to the approval of the community, so if a moderator isn't acting as a good gatekeeper, he/she...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
This is very helpful, thanks. I think in an effort to give shape to the amorphous understanding we have in the community concerning how this will work, I've proposed an above board, publicly inspectable set of rules or standards that would allow everyone to understand what to expect from moderators. I'm glad to hear this is something you'll consider. An owner, described as having no influence on curation, then having private conversations with moderators about curation seems like it may be a...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Bryan ·
I definitely have been operating from a Niche-as-Publication point of view... thinking of it more like a magazine than a running forum thread—or as content soup —as @Malkazoid puts it. I've been thinking hard about recruiting content creators and collaborating with other Niche owners... but, ( and I know I'm late to this topic, and I think it's being discussed again in other places, but I read this one first, so... ) now I'm not sure what's the point. As Ted comments: If my intentions are to...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Fabiana Cecin ·
Niches are tags. Niche owners should receive 0% payout, as they do nothing. A niche owner is its sponsor. If the niche doesn't generate its annual fee, the owner should pay for it or lose ownership. It's an honorific position. Niche owners can sell their ownership, sure. I'm a niche owner and I don't see why I should get a 10% cut on everything that goes into a tag I happened to get dibs on.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Fabiana Cecin ·
Owners should be the default, fall-back moderators of niches. Most niches will have no other moderators. If an owner is doing an ace job at moderating, no one in the community will feel the need to add the second layer of moderation.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

chrisabdey ·
I agree on final say for moderating.. But as a niche owner that's the whole point to get the 10% to ensure the niche runs properly. I plan on being an active owner. Sure, anyone who just sits on their niche and does nothing... well that's different. But I think the majority won't just sit and do nothing.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
Interesting take. Niches are a type of asset - bought and sold. Like many assets in the world they can generate income for the owner. People have paid for niches, taking the risk that Narrative might amount to nothing - their reward: an entrepreneurial opportunity. The harder they work to develop their niche with good content creators, good content and good moderation, the more the niche will earn for them. This is sound economic theory for the success of the network. If they work hard,...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Fabiana Cecin ·
Just to clarify, what I'm proposing is default moderation for owners, not literally a final say. That is, once the count of elected moderators from a niche goes from zero to one, the owner automatically loses moderation powers. When the elected moderator count from a niche goes from one to zero, the owner is automatically reinstated as the default moderator. Most niches won't bother with moderator elections since owners are people and people generally do good jobs, and most niches won't be...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

chrisabdey ·
To my knowledge though, if there wasn't at least 1 elected moderator that 10% went away anyway, they needed to be instated to get that share of the pie.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Ted ·
Not any longer, @chrisabdey . See point #11 in this blog post: https://blog.narrative.network...process-35185ce0eb4d
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

chrisabdey ·
Ah ha... I must have missed that.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Verona Williams ·
Ted, thanks for the link to that blog entry. I was going a little bit cross-eyed from all the discussion going on in this thread. My suggestion, though, would be that moderators should be required to have some knowledge of the niche in question so (for example) the owner of a niche called Aerospace isn't facepalming because somebody posted their B.S. theory on a way to get astronauts from Earth to Mars in two days? Because inertial dampeners haven't been invented yet, an attempt to do that...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

chrisabdey ·
@Verona Williams - That's a valid concern, but I think that Narrative organically takes care of this due to the rewards system. I think (I could be wrong here) that you can only be the moderator of up to 5 niches? This entails that you'd want to be part of a niche that was not only profitable, but that one you knew you could help grow and get better rewards? If I am wrong on the above point, it should still be taken care of since it's an election process as well and people could be booted...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Verona Williams ·
You're right; I've been going back and forth about that with the person who suggested the Aerospace niche about that offline (we know each other and sometimes share a computer). I think the concern we both have is that some niche owners would like for their niches to be taken seriously, and maybe something like "Futurism" would be better for discussing technological theories that might be possible in the distant future even if it isn't possible now.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Ted ·
To clarify-- there is no limit on the number of niches a person can moderate, but all niche moderators do have to be elected.
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

chrisabdey ·
Great! Thanks @Ted I got it mixed with Niche Owners. But shouldn't there be a cap on moderation? I guess not since there will be a natural cap given that if someone is deemed to not be doing anything or be doing a poor job they'd be removed anyway. So if I can do a good job moderating 1,000 niches I suppose I should be given the opportunity to do so. But I do worry about people filling slots for the sake of filling slots and perhaps gumming up the works too soon? Though I suppose you can...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

Malkazoid ·
This is a good time to add a small note about the need for owners to be able to trigger an injunction if a moderator is acting in such a way that is damaging the niche. If a moderator suddenly starts sending abusive messages to users, the situation will need to be remedied immediately by suspending the moderator, and the turnaround time for someone to file a Tribunal procedure for that will be too long in the vast majority of cases. So I propose that owners should be allowed to suspend a...
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Re: On what grounds could an Owner lose ownership?

chrisabdey ·
Are niche owners allowed to message "@all" for their followers/subscribers? Are moderators allowed to do that as well? But yes, if a moderator is behaving abusively then the owner should definitely have the ability to suspend right away and escalate to the tribunal if the moderator really feels it was unjust.
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Re: Undo button!

Maelstrohm Black ·
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY! Maelstrohm https://thereverendmaelstrohmblack.wordpress.com https://smoke.io/@maelstrohmblack https://youtube.com/user/taphophiliacs https://twitch.tv/maelstrohmblack
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Will the Minnows lose out in the Big Alpha......Big worries and Nighmares!

Harj ·
I think this is a worry for all minnows like myself all round esspecially as the alpha process gets nearer, I had a dream that I won my Niche but then reality hit home was it a nightmare that it might not happen (( ! Firstly its the process which you guys have done a great job to explain but still its unclear how it will all works at alpha. Secondly how many founders are there ? I appreciate the support the founders are doing for us but I think Minnows are still scared that they will be left...
 
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