Amend the AUP to allow NRVE transactions

Service: Narrative

A lot of people have been posting lately trying to look for ways to improve the value of NRVE.  I proposed the idea of a Narrative Gigs niche here:

https://www.narrative.org/hq/a...al/52548091189679094

It would be used for people to post ads for gigs paid in NRVE only.

I'm not sure why the AUP doesn't want to allow person to person sales, but perhaps they don't want this place to turn into ebay.  The niche and idea behind it though wouldn't.  This would just be for services offered and paid in NRVE.  The community wants this too, so why not allow it?

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If Narrative is considering allowing tipping, how would this be any different? The AUP needs to be revised... this could bring a great deal more interaction with the currency, and more people to the platform. I hope it will be considered!

The ability to pay NRVE within the platform would surely help the Publications, too. Especially if they wanted to simply pay for content rather than sharing rewards.

Serroc posted:

The ability to pay NRVE within the platform would surely help the Publications, too. Especially if they wanted to simply pay for content rather than sharing rewards.

The more transactions, the more volume, and that brings more attention to the token and more value to it.  They know those basics too, so I would be surprised if this idea is rejected!  Worse, if I want to send some NRVE from my Neon wallet to someone else, I am free to do it.  Why not allow me to post a gig on here to promote my services?  As you stated they already plan tipping and other Narrator to Narrator NRVE transactions, so adding this is a positive move for Narrative.

New Social Media posted:

This is a great idea and I hope, it will be made possible. Let us not lose people due to a lack of functionality. The more usecases Narrative can have in the short-term the better.

Please vote for it. 

@Finnian. One of the reasons we don't allow person to persons sales is to stay away from fraud, waste and abuse.  We do have Niches, like the Etsy Niche that point to the best of finds on Etsy but those take you to other sites where they manage the actual transactions.

We also do not want to allow scamming for crypto. For example, if someone post a job something like "Build me a logo for 10,000 NRVE" and they build but then no payment is done. Or the opposite, they get paid upfront and then no delivery of the service.  It's a slippery slope. It's unfortunate that scamming  is still very prevalent, especially in the crypto world.

Tipping is in Narrative's future.  That is within the platform itself.  

I hope that explains things a bit better.   

BTW, we are reading all the ideas you guys are proposing.

Glad to see that y'all are reading these. :-) 

I understand the issues with fraud etc. And would hope there is a disclaimer somewhere in all the documentation that we are responsible for our own actions and etc etc. 

Because once you introduce "tipping" - these kinds of transactions will undoubtedly occur within comments, anyway. There are many "enterprising" souls out there. 

Having a central niche for it, would at least give a visible point to monitor... 

That's my 2 cents (or 150 NRVE or so).

@MOLLY O, we can already make deals behind the scenes outside Narrative.  If I want to hire someone to make a logo and pay them in NRVE, it can already be done. 

I don't see how tipping is going to be any different either.  If I offer security consulting in exchange for a tip, isn't that the same?  People could ask for a tip in exchange for a service.  Or they could tip before it.  What else do you plan to use tips for then?  Perhaps it is something different from what I'm anticipating.

Let's say I post my ad for my service.  I offer to do a security assessment of your property for X amount of NRVE.  Then I do not deliver that service.  My reputation here would be ruined.  In other words, how many people do you think are going to get scammed when the ads and responses to them are all public?

It wouldn't happen very often unless the customer or provider wanted to ruin themselves.  If that is the reason to not have Narrative Gigs and NRVE transactions between Narrators, it isn't a very good one.  The whole idea of Narrative, I thought at least, was allowing the Narrators to mostly govern themselves.

You do want the volume of transactions in NRVE to increase, right?  The value of it and reason to keep and use it?  This is a good way to make that happen.

Also, I know this place isn't Steemit, blah blah blah, but on Steemit the Steem Gigs tag was so popular that an entire new website was created from it.  steemgigs.org (I think) was a huge plus for Steemit.  That site has many more users than Narrative, and clearly the gig system is working well there.  We should have a "free market" as much as possible too.  I would hope Narrative would embrace a free market and allow people to make transactions in the open instead of forcing them behind the scenes.  All this niche is doing is allowing people to advertise openly.

While I think the concerns for fraud, waste, and abuse are valid, and I appreciate the niche suggestion @Finnian, I'd much rather see an actual gig marketplace. A NRVE marketplace where Narrators can post their gig and buyers can put the NRVE into an escrow account with a smart contract releasing it to the seller upon completion of a project would be a huge boon to the platform. Of course, I realize that is not possible in the short-term. Putting it on the long-term roadmap, however, would boost the NRVE economy, I believe, in anticipation of the event. Meanwhile, a niche dedicated to allowing such transactions could give us all some metrics on the feasibility of the marketplace. 

I do agree that freedom in market dynamics is preferable to fear of abuse. There will likely be some abuse, but it will likely be a minority.

@Garden Gnome Publications, I don't expect much fraud or abuse.  Who's going to risk their account to do it?  If anything having the niche and services offered publicly posted will make it more difficult for people to be scammed.  In the future an actual tab or section for the market place would be wonderful!  Until that is implemented, the Tribunal and developers should allow us to transact NRVE in the open to the benefit of the platform.

I don't expect much fraud or abuse.  Who's going to risk their account to do it? Who's going to risk their account to do it?

The same people risking their reputations right now on plagiarism. Let's not underestimate the depths of humanity's depravity.

Garden Gnome Publications posted:

I don't expect much fraud or abuse.  Who's going to risk their account to do it? Who's going to risk their account to do it?

The same people risking their reputations right now on plagiarism. Let's not underestimate the depths of humanity's depravity.

Uhm, who's going to do business with such a person?  If the gig is posted by a known scammer, who would be dumb enough to hire them?  As in a free market, individuals would be wise enough to decide for themselves who they do business with or not.

Shrimp2whales for example has a well known history as a graphic artist, and he has done countless jobs for people on Steemit and other platforms.  Heck, he designed my business cards and logos!

If someone wanted to have him do something for them, he would be an easy and safe choice based on his past and reputation.  This isn't as scary as people are making it out to be in other words. 

There has to be another more important reason that they are against this.  I'm not buying it that the main reason is fraud or abuse.

@Finnian.  I gave you one reason ...but I am trying to understand what you are proposing better so I can think through a few things.

How are you thinking that the payments will be made for the services completed?  Would you simply go offline to discuss public addresses for wallets and payments to be made?

Until Narrative supported it, Narrators would simply make the transactions on their own in the background.  I would use my Neon Wallet to send and receive.  As I do business with people on Narrative, they could use my Narrative Gig post to reply to it with reviews, thanks, complaints, etc. all in public for everyone to see.

@Finnian, I think you have a valid point about the gigs, so long as all transactions and discussions about transactions occur off platform.  I would look at it much more like Craig's list.......this would prevent Narrative from becoming like e-bay and being a part of the transaction and thus being responsible for fraud when it happens.  One issue of course is how would they contact you? ...we aren't allowed to put personally identifiable information into a post.

@Molly O, Until Narrative decides to get something like this up and running more like the e-bay style model or like steemit's gig website.....is there a free gig site that could be used that people could ultimately link back to in their post?  Like linking to an ETSY post, only this would link to the free gig site, and all transaction discussions and 'YOU DIDN'T PAY ME, AND YOU DID TERRIBLE WORK' discussions can happen there

I personally like @GARDEN GNOME PUBLICATIONS idea.  I'm almost tempted to standup a market place with a smart contract myself for NRVE

@Finnian, I'm not opposed to the idea. I think I've been clear about that, but you can't paint too rosy a picture of even a good thing.

Uhm, who's going to do business with such a person?  If the gig is posted by a known scammer, who would be dumb enough to hire them?

Let's think about this. First-time scammers aren't "known" scammers. People new to Narrative may not know the scammers who are known. And, don't forget, there are many ways to conduct a scam. People can steal items locally and sell them online. They can forge documents, hack into unsecure wallets, or do things you and I can't imagine. Some people are as smart as others are stupid.

I get the buyer-beware aspect of the free market, and I favor it. You're talking about someone who has thought about, read up on, and written about libertarian philosophy and ethics. I get it. But you don't wish the negatives away. People are as stupid as they are depraved. That's why a marketplace where buyers can put money into escrow while a seller works on delivery is a positive way to alleviate such concerns. Meanwhile, I think your niche idea is a good patch until such a marketplace can be created. 

Garden Gnome Publications posted:

While I think the concerns for fraud, waste, and abuse are valid, and I appreciate the niche suggestion @Finnian, I'd much rather see an actual gig marketplace. A NRVE marketplace where Narrators can post their gig and buyers can put the NRVE into an escrow account with a smart contract releasing it to the seller upon completion of a project would be a huge boon to the platform. Of course, I realize that is not possible in the short-term. Putting it on the long-term roadmap, however, would boost the NRVE economy, I believe, in anticipation of the event. Meanwhile, a niche dedicated to allowing such transactions could give us all some metrics on the feasibility of the marketplace. 

I do agree that freedom in market dynamics is preferable to fear of abuse. There will likely be some abuse, but it will likely be a minority.

A market place is far far away, and we all know it.    Agreed that a niche in the mean time would help.  We need to draw in more users, and how better to do it than a market?  We also need to make the NRVE token more valuable, and allowing gigs to transact in NRVE would do it.

@Finnian. As long as transactions are off the platform, this seems like it could work as people are doing this now in various places (e.g. contests).  I am asking questions as we are updating the AUP soon to provide a bit more clarity in some areas based on experience to date. 

It sounds like others on here have some great ideas for the future!  

MOLLY O posted:

@Finnian. As long as transactions are off the platform, this seems like it could work as people are doing this now in various places (e.g. contests).  I am asking questions as we are updating the AUP soon to provide a bit more clarity in some areas based on experience to date. 

It sounds like others on here have some great ideas for the future!  

Thank you Molly!  Hopefully the people rejecting the niche idea will change their votes then.  This will really help draw a lot more people to the platform and raise the value of NRVE at the same time.

I won a contest on Steemit a few years ago and the prize new comic books.  The fellow sent them to my PO Box, and then I posted photos of them on my steemit blog and tagged him and also replied to his original post, to show they arrived and were awesome and everything was as legit as he had presented.

I have a "virtual mail" postal box for $10/month, that receives physical mail at a facility and forwards my mail to me.  I think anyone who does small business online these days could go with that for privacy.

I know this isn't directly related, but wanted to share how it worked for me and how I addressed the sharing of personal info. issue with the PO Box.

I have a "virtual mail" postal box for $10/month, that receives physical mail at a facility and forwards my mail to me.  I think anyone who does small business online these days could go with that for privacy.

That's an awesome service. I've thought about offering something like that myself, if I had the right set up. Can I just do a Google search for "virtual mail box?"

Garden Gnome Publications posted:

I have a "virtual mail" postal box for $10/month, that receives physical mail at a facility and forwards my mail to me.  I think anyone who does small business online these days could go with that for privacy.

That's an awesome service. I've thought about offering something like that myself, if I had the right set up. Can I just do a Google search for "virtual mail box?"

I'm not sure how one would go about setting up which part as a business.  The virtual service is just an aggregator of independent postal service businesses (like UPS Store, Postal Annex, etc.) that subscribe to its service and offers a web interface for customers to access mail.  So it would depend which end of things you wanted to do - be a postal service provider, or be a software developer to provide digital access solutions to mail providers.  It does sound interesting either way.  It's a bit romantic to think of being a independent post office, in a David Brin kind of way

PS - I wrote a post about how to set up a virtual mail address last night here https://www.narrative.org/post...a-virtual-postal-box (and corrected my huge boo boo with it's/its)

 

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