Copyright Conflicts on Narrative

Service: Narrative

Two days ago on 21st May, I got one post on my Leadership Niche from Doru Tarita (Teddy). 

In the post footer he mentioned the source of surfersam site but it was not added in canonical link. So I asked about his user details on that site and he responded this.

"Thank you for your comment. I wish I can write better English, but my English is not good. I am happy when I can use free articles from surfersam. I can find there, what I want to express by myself.  They are a source of inspiration for me :-)"

(I've attached a screenshot also of his response notification on my mail.)

So replied him "English is not my 1st language either, but that's the real fun to learn and share our own thoughts. As far as I know Narrative doesn't allow to repost other writers content either it's a free or paid, as it conflicts with their AUP. I hope you've gone through that."

He immediately deleted that post after that. You can see that, the link of his post is not working anymore. I've bookmarked it until he respond on my query.

https://www.narrative.org/post...-sphere-of-influence

You can see that in his activity too.

https://www.narrative.org/m/Teddy/activity

So I dig down more and came to know that he reposted many articles from different sources under his profile and haven't mentioned anything in canonical link.

Here I want to know about, is this fine to post free articles on Narrative from other sources from other writers ? I don't have any issues with him nor I want to damage anyone here but I'm confused how to deal with this kind of content on my Niches, because right now Niche Owners are de facto moderators of their own Niches. So the solution will help us to deal with this kind of contents.

I have created a private issue 2 days ago but I think the community reviews are required on this for spreading the awareness on this for current and future content creators on Narrative. 

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I'm not only worried about this serious matter but I'm also worried about that kind of content giving the author a reputation of 99% (I struggle maintaining 85% with original and not too short content).

Short (and maybe stolen) content seems to be highly rewarding, at present.

This is a VERY SERIOUS matter. I wasn't following Doru's writing too closely but I've been interacting with him as he is a friendly person who comments and supports other people's work. I don't have any problem with him personally and I can imagine his sentiment: if Narrative was a French or Italian website, you wouldn't get meaningful insights from me apart from a graceful compliment now and then. Would it be an excuse to steal other people's content though? Hell, no.

I've been a bit less enamoured with Narrative for the past couple of weeks, for many reasons (most of them expressed also by other Narrators on the forum and on the platform itself.) But I haven't thought about the issue of blatant "borrowing" that - as @Vico Biscotti pointed out - can lead to a very high rep indeed. I've been 66 forever (I'm not certified - I'll wait with it to see the first payout - I already bought one niche and I'm hesitant to invest any more money before I see how it all works) - but even if I was certified, I would have probably been 96 now. Which is still less than Doru. And I've never borrowed other people's content (apart from photos from Unsplash for illustration - which is perfectly legal according to Unsplash's terms of use and they are all attributed). Also, I'm always adding canonical links to all of my own re-posted stuff.

So yeah, I feel discouraged even more now. Oh well.

Pixabay and Unsplash set out their terms of use plainly. Most material from Pixabay doesn't require attribution, although the contributors do appreciate it. NASA allows use of pictures with attribution. I'm sure there are other sites that allow free, or use with attribution, of material, and there are sites with material that is public domain, but a person would have to be very careful to be sure.

@Colleen Ryer, you're right - there are plenty of sources on the internet that allow using their content for free even without attribution, for many different reasons. But the problem is that if a user creates a post that doesn't infringe on anyone's copyright but still it's not their own content, I don't think they should be financially rewarded for that... To me, it's cheating.

@Gosia Rokicka , it's been a while since it's become expected that posts come with pictures on every platform I can think of, and using "free" pictures is totally typical. If written material is in the public domain, or has been deemed public by the author, there's no law against using this material, and if attribution isn't asked for, then it doesn't have to be included.

I agree that using other peoples' freely distributed material is cheating, but it's accepted practice - and legal. Most sites don't even blink about images, and most images aren't "by the author."

But for some reason, written material isn't viewed the same way. I write a lot of "collation" type posts - with a goodly amount of "original material", included - and always use quotations, annotations, and links to what I didn't write myself, for all of the written stuff, even if I figure it's "fair use".

With pics, I'm not so picky, tho I usually caption a pic, might not link to the source if it's from Pixabay or a similar site. If I'm in doubt about a picture, I will link back to the source in the attribute. 

Is the case that @Blogger Krunal is discussing a case of "Where should the line be drawn?"  if the poster had gone a little further with quote marks, etc., would it seem there's still an issue?  Might just be a case of the poster taking a little more time, and doing a little more to make clear what he has written himself and what he hasn't?

 

We all use free images but it's just for a presentation purpose. That image doesn't hold any content of the writer, we just choose it to relate it with our writing to make it more appealing. It's just like toppings on our pancake.

But what if we borrowed toppings and pancake both from other shop for free and try to sell on our shop in exchange of reward ? I think it's purely an unethical way to earn money/reputation on someone else's efforts.

We don't upvote any post by its image but we do when we like the article, the thoughts expressed in it. Later on we follow that writer in a hope to learn from his/her writings and experiences or to gain something meaningful from it.

If I go through his profile and start reading his articles, spend some time on it and later on find out its not his then why would I follow him, why should I upvote and reward him for someone else's content?
(doesn't matter it's a free or paid).

I don't have any issue with free articles but I don't like to see every free articles from Google to Narrative. Either we can exclude such articles from the rewards/reputation score formula or in worst case down vote and report it.

Doru attained a high rep, in part, because people upvote his content. If you feel that it is of low quality then down vote it.  That will fix both his rep and the prominence of the content.  

I take a hard line on copyright infringement. In the old days, when Google still ranked websites based on how well authors could make use of keywords within the content and create gobs of bank links, there were websites that would take free articles from article directories, placed there by the authors themselves who hoped their articles would be spread all over the internet, publish them as-is with author attribution and a link back to the original article, then slap AdSense ads on the pages and squeeze in a few cents per day on thousands of pages across multiple websites. In other words, they followed all the rules and could earn decent coin with little effort. Google fixed that by penalizing such sites with their algorithms. Now, you pretty much need some original content if you want  your website to rank.

This is not the issue we're dealing. This Narrator's content is an infringement of copyright law. Not only does it potentially violate Narrative's AUP (I didn't check), it most definitely violates Supersam's terms of service (http://www.surfersam.com/terms-of-use.htm), the site where the content was taken from. They have page dedicated to DMCA (http://www.surfersam.com/terms-of-use.htm), which means they take IP laws seriously.

If one wanted to pursue justice in this matter, one could contact Supersam administrators and let them know that their content is being used this way. As far as Narrative is concerned, I'd place the user on Conduct Negative with a warning. If it happens again, and if they don't remove all the lifted the content in a speedy manner, I'd ban them from the site. I'm not sure what's Narrative's M.O. is on this (I think they've said they won't ban people from the site). In a case like this, however, I think it's permissible.

Um, I think the poster needs to be in the loop, here. He has a right to know what's going on, and to speak on his own behalf. He may have infringed copy write, and if so, needs to stop doing this - but he hasn't even been notified. Also, @Ted and the rest of the @Narrative team need to check this out.  Oops, didn't see you up there @David Dreezer - I agree, downvoting the content is the way to go.

Vico Biscotti posted:

@Garden Gnome Publications, good idea. Contacted surfersam. Let's see.

It would be great to have feedback from the Narrative team too...

They can certainly lodge a dmca complaint.

Vico Biscotti posted:

@Colleen Ryer, one problem, here. The moment you notify the author, he deletes the contents, and feedback from the Team would be gone... I've downvoted the article but waiting for Narrative to intervene.

he deletes the contents

problem solved?

I've downvoted the article but waiting for Narrative to intervene

Intervene what way?  Governance is and will be the community's job. Report it as an AUP violation. Downvote it. 

I have down voted all his posts which are sourced from other sites. Remaining ones I have to check on Google. Right now I'm not on pc but if anyone finds it someone else's, down vote it. 

Sorry, @David Dreezer, but I don't understand.

If an author uses the hack of publishing "borrowed" content and then deleting it when he's caught (or before), this still seems to keep his rep very high. I'm uncomfortable with that.

At least till now. Luckily, seems that the author has finally been penalized, at least in part and for now, and the post is no more there (deleted by him?).

Still, I don't understand. If I downvote for AUP violation, and the AUP violation is there, how is "community governance" supposed afterward to intervene? Maybe I missed something? Also, I'd expect that stealing content would go further than a temporary -10 on the rep, but maybe that's just me too rigid.

I have down voted all his posts which are sourced from other sites. Remaining ones I have to check on Google. Right now I'm not on pc but if anyone finds it someone else's, down vote it.

@Colleen Ryer he knows very well what he had done when he deleted his post in first place. 

@Garden Gnome Publications that's a good idea of contacting that site and a great action @Vico Biscotti let's see what's their response on it. Agree, temporary - 10 is less for stealing. 

 

Vico Biscotti posted:

Sorry, @David Dreezer, but I don't understand.

If an author uses the hack of publishing "borrowed" content and then deleting it when he's caught (or before), this still seems to keep his rep very high. I'm uncomfortable with that.

Are you sure that he's gaining rep for content that doesn't exist?  How did you come to that conclusion? I'll have to check into that.  Maybe I missed something.

At least till now. Luckily, seems that the author has finally been penalized, at least in part and for now, and the post is no more there (deleted by him?).

Still, I don't understand. If I downvote for AUP violation, and the AUP violation is there, how is "community governance" supposed afterward to intervene? Maybe I missed something? Also, I'd expect that stealing content would go further than a temporary -10 on the rep, but maybe that's just me too rigid.

If I downvote for AUP violation  is a part of Community Governance as much as anything else that you do.  THAT IS the intervention.  I think that yes, you missed that something. 

And for the temporary -10 part....  Yes, could be a temporary -10 for the first violation (have we had an AUP violation yet?).  And it grows increasingly with each one.  If the author does it once, maybe it is a mistake or lack of understanding?  Mistakes happen and -10 for a short period is appropriate.  If the Author does it several times?   Well, it could grow into a very significant hit for a long period time.   That is a part that you are also missing. Increasing penalty for Conduct Negative.

David Dreezer posted:
Vico Biscotti posted:

Sorry, @David Dreezer, but I don't understand.

If an author uses the hack of publishing "borrowed" content and then deleting it when he's caught (or before), this still seems to keep his rep very high. I'm uncomfortable with that.

Are you sure that he's gaining rep for content that doesn't exist?  How did you come to that conclusion?

At least till now. Luckily, seems that the author has finally been penalized, at least in part and for now, and the post is no more there (deleted by him?).

Still, I don't understand. If I downvote for AUP violation, and the AUP violation is there, how is "community governance" supposed afterward to intervene? Maybe I missed something? Also, I'd expect that stealing content would go further than a temporary -10 on the rep, but maybe that's just me too rigid.

If I downvote for AUP violation  is a part of Community Governance as much as anything else that you do.  THAT IS the intervention.  I think that yes, you missed that something. 

And for the temporary -10 part....  Yes, could be a temporary -10 for the first violation (have we had an AUP violation yet?).  And it grows increasingly with each one.  If the author does it once, maybe it is a mistake or lack of understanding?  Mistakes happen and -10 for a short period is appropriate.  If the Author does it several times?   Well, it could grow into a very significant hit for a long period time.   That is a part that you are also missing. Increasing penalty for Conduct Negative.

When content is downvoted for what seems an AUP violation, the poster should have the chance to review what has been downvoted, in case it isn't one. @David Dreezer, is it possible to review to be sure the downvote is appropriate?

@David Dreezer,

"Are you sure that he's gaining rep for content that doesn't exist?  How did you come to that conclusion?"

I've no evidence. I just saw that after this trick he was still 99, which is pretty high. He's now 89, so let's see in the future. I just wonder is the appreciation he got in the meanwhile contributed or has been deleted with the article.

"If I downvote for AUP violation  is a part of Community Governance as much as anything else that you do."

Just a misunderstanding on that. I already mentioned that I downvoted and assumed it was obvious that I downvoted for AUP. Now it's clear.

"And for the temporary -10 part.... "

Ok. If it's progressive, it makes sense.

Vico Biscotti posted:

@David Dreezer,

"Are you sure that he's gaining rep for content that doesn't exist?  How did you come to that conclusion?"

I've no evidence. I just saw that after this trick he was still 99, which is pretty high. He's now 89, so let's see in the future. I just wonder is the appreciation he got in the meanwhile contributed or has been deleted with the article.

"If I downvote for AUP violation  is a part of Community Governance as much as anything else that you do."

Just a misunderstanding on that. I already mentioned that I downvoted and assumed it was obvious that I downvoted for AUP. Now it's clear.

"And for the temporary -10 part.... "

Ok. If it's progressive, it makes sense.

I'm sorry @Vico Biscotti  I was editing the first part of that answer and you responded to it before I got my edit done.

I will look into that, it is a valid question and you gave a valid reply.  I will do the due diligence.

Colleen Ryer posted

When content is downvoted for what seems an AUP violation, the poster should have the chance to review what has been downvoted, in case it isn't one. @David Dreezer, is it possible to review to be sure the downvote is appropriate?

@Colleen Ryer, I'm not sure if this is a good thing. This could be used by the author to delete the content as soon as he/she is caught, before the AUP check and penalty. That's why I didn't warn the author directly. Unless, of course, posts are kept in archive but I read in the occasion of the famous BLOG case (when an important post - along with all the discussion - was deleted by the author) that this is not.

cc: @David Dreezer

Blogger Krunal posted:

We all use free images but it's just for a presentation purpose. That image doesn't hold any content of the writer, we just choose it to relate it with our writing to make it more appealing. It's just like toppings on our pancake.

But what if we borrowed toppings and pancake both from other shop for free and try to sell on our shop in exchange of reward ? I think it's purely an unethical way to earn money/reputation on someone else's efforts.

We don't upvote any post by its image but we do when we like the article, the thoughts expressed in it. Later on we follow that writer in a hope to learn from his/her writings and experiences or to gain something meaningful from it.

If I go through his profile and start reading his articles, spend some time on it and later on find out its not his then why would I follow him, why should I upvote and reward him for someone else's content?
(doesn't matter it's a free or paid).

I don't have any issue with free articles but I don't like to see every free articles from Google to Narrative. Either we can exclude such articles from the rewards/reputation score formula or in worst case down vote and report it.

Hi @Blogger Krunal I remember when I couldn't afford a website - rather couldn't afford to pay fees and royalties for images - without which a website would never make it. Sites like pixabay changed all that, and I am grateful.

I don't intend to suggest that "free" articles should be reproduced and  posted here  - especially if they are earning rewards. It isn't illegal, but it is unfair to the members who work hard at creating content. 

This is true also of the digital artists who work hard at it, yet are surrounded by so many "borrowed images". Fortunately they can prosper by making it plain that they are the creators, not borrowers of someone else's creation.

Fortunate, too, that since the 'writers among  us have already noted that if their writing doesn't have a picture, few bother with it.

Funny the way things have turned out

Vico Biscotti posted:
Colleen Ryer posted

When content is downvoted for what seems an AUP violation, the poster should have the chance to review what has been downvoted, in case it isn't one. @David Dreezer, is it possible to review to be sure the downvote is appropriate?

@Colleen Ryer, I'm not sure if this is a good thing. This could be used by the author to delete the content as soon as he/she is caught, before the AUP check and penalty. That's why I didn't warn the author directly. Unless, of course, posts are kept in archive but I read in the occasion of the famous BLOG case (when an important post - along with all the discussion - was deleted by the author) that this is not.

cc: @David Dreezer

@Vico Biscotti since downvotes are anonymous and a voter might not be well enough aware of what is and what isn't an AUP violation, there is a chance that acceptable content could be downvoted - I just want to know if there's a way to put it straight once a downvote has happened and it shouldn't have. I didn't mean that who ever is downvoted is notified directly - the sudden rep drop should be notification enough, I think

@Colleen Ryer in his every he had mentioned source info. You can easily judge on that and down vote it.

We just have to make sure his original posts don't get down voted. If anyone by mistake down voted his own content then it can be easily upvoted again. 

To all, punish the bad deeds not the person. 

Blogger Krunal posted:

@Colleen Ryer in his every he had mentioned source info. You can easily judge on that and down vote it.

We just have to make sure his original posts don't get down voted. If anyone by mistake down voted his own content then it can be easily upvoted again. 

To all, punish the bad deeds not the person. 

I see @Blogger Krunal , maybe in some cases just citing the source isn't good enough - actual permission from the source is required and for some posts wasn't obtained. This isn't allowed, but I'm having a hard time telling which are which.

@Colleen Ryer, yes, the author should be notified. I only say not immediately on downvoting, because a malevolent member can use that to hide evidence. I guess the author has been notified when the article has been removed for AUP violation. Or should.

@Blogger Krunal, I remember one post from the staff said that the canonical url should be set to affirm that you own the content (even if, of course, it's not sufficient). Else, it's okay to assume that it's an infringement.

@Colleen Ryer any articles, videos which are sourced from other sites should be down voted. I can see very few in initial stage he posted his own stories and photographs. So if you just look on source details you can down boge it and the remaining ones you can read a little bit of content and you will know it's his or not. As he mentioned few words of Narrative, Narrators, about his Australia trip etc.

@Vico Biscotti thanks for sharing that. It will be easy to judge now. However, you and me have already downvoted on those out sourced contents and it will definitely affect his rep score on whatever he had gained by posting and replying on those posts. As far as I know, score gets updated once in a day so I guess we can expect some more difference in his rep score by tomorrow. FYI @David Dreezer

There are ways to tell if an article has been lifted from a website without permission. In Surfersam's case, it seems to be a site where authors post their writing, but they don't get a byline (which is odd). There are still article directories, such as EzineArticles, where articles intended for distribution can be picked up and used by anyone for their email newsletters, website content, or whatever. But there are rules and guidelines for giving proper attribution. As long as publishers follow the rules, all is good. I would not consider that a Narrative AUP violation. It's less than ideal as far as content publishing is concerned, but it's not unethical. I may have to write a post on how to identify a copyright infringement.

At any rate, I've been chasing a deadline all morning. I intend to go back and look at this Narrator's content and do some downvoting where necessary. Maybe enough reputation debuffs will send a signal that the user is on thin ice. It also might not hurt for a few people to leave comments about why they are downvoting.

My thinking is, if several people downvote several posts each day and those downvotes result in reputation debuffs, eventually that user will have a poor reputation. If they keep going, the reputation will suffer long-term. That means the community has to be on their toes. Niche owners and moderators especially since their votes, up and down, in their own Niches have extra sway.

 

Blogger Krunal posted:

@Colleen Ryer any articles, videos which are sourced from other sites should be down voted. I can see very few in initial stage he posted his own stories and photographs. So if you just look on source details you can down boge it and the remaining ones you can read a little bit of content and you will know it's his or not. As he mentioned few words of Narrative, Narrators, about his Australia trip etc.

@Vico Biscotti thanks for sharing that. It will be easy to judge now. However, you and me have already downvoted on those out sourced contents and it will definitely affect his rep score on whatever he had gained by posting and replying on those posts. As far as I know, score gets updated once in a day so I guess we can expect some more difference in his rep score by tomorrow. FYI @David Dreezer

I see that he's posted some material that is clearly in the public domain, and he declares this and where it comes from. Using this material may be considered poor quality in many eyes, and will downvote as poor quality  - some will just skip it or even upvote it if they like it. 

But it isn't plagiarism or copyright infringement - so shouldn't be downvoted as an AUP.  

 

 

Garden Gnome Publications posted:

There are ways to tell if an article has been lifted from a website without permission. In Surfersam's case, it seems to be a site where authors post their writing, but they don't get a byline (which is odd). There are still article directories, such as EzineArticles, where articles intended for distribution can be picked up and used by anyone for their email newsletters, website content, or whatever. But there are rules and guidelines for giving proper attribution. As long as publishers follow the rules, all is good. I would not consider that a Narrative AUP violation. It's less than ideal as far as content publishing is concerned, but it's not unethical. I may have to write a post on how to identify a copyright infringement.

At any rate, I've been chasing a deadline all morning. I intend to go back and look at this Narrator's content and do some downvoting where necessary. Maybe enough reputation debuffs will send a signal that the user is on thin ice. It also might not hurt for a few people to leave comments about why they are downvoting.

My thinking is, if several people downvote several posts each day and those downvotes result in reputation debuffs, eventually that user will have a poor reputation. If they keep going, the reputation will suffer long-term. That means the community has to be on their toes. Niche owners and moderators especially since their votes, up and down, in their own Niches have extra sway.

 

@Garden Gnome Publications if you have time, a post on this it would be awesome and really useful too!  

I did go through the Narrator's stream to find content that has been taken from another site, but all of it has already been removed for AUP violations. I'm guessing Narrative automatically removes it, after a human review, if the content is indeed an AUP violation. The is comforting.

@Colleen Ryer, "But it isn't plagiarism or copyright infringement - so shouldn't be downvoted as an AUP."

That is correct. I would not downvote that content for an AUP violation. It could be low quality depending on how you define that. For most of that, I'll give the user a pass. I may not upvote, but I won't downvote unless it's really awful content.

It may be a few days before I can get to the post. I'm on the road and super-busy with some personal business. I'll return home next week.

@Blogger Krunal, a wave of new interesting content...

Funny to see that "Mr. Trump" has time to vote on so many niches and know how to hide posts from the journal... Anyway, AUP tells "No impersonation of other member/non-members other than yourself." but HOW I can I report a user? And how can they ascertain that he's not him?

Just now, 30 th. of Mai, I discovered this posting about my person! Thank you for your comments! I am so sorry I don´t see this post before. I am not a good English writer. My main intention was to add here on narrative a good content, with good thoughts and I am so surprised, how easily people can put down the others if they don´t understand the true story. As a reaction of BLOGGER KRUNAL I reacted immediately and I deleted that blog, because now I understood, that even free to copy blogs are here not accepted. But it was too late ... After that, I received a lot of downvotes on any of my blogs.  I was surprised, why? My blogs are usually just questions, even because my English is bad and I don´t want to make mistakes. The old first blogs content a journey with a collection of inspirational videos which I liked. Every blog with special content had the source on it. I never intend to declare these blogs like my own. I like to inspire people to be good people and to grow on their personal development. Now, I am the "bad boy" with negative conduct. Sorry, that I make the community feel so terrible with my posts. It was not my intention. I invested time and money and hope for narrative. My reputation is not coming from anywhere. I worked hard on twitter, also to the recruit new user, to create logos, to promote positively narrative and so on. I paid for 5 niches. Do you believe this come from nothing?

Now, I am punished for that ONE mistake 7 times. My mistake was to post two free blogs from other sources (they don´t have authors names in it). No other violations just one and the same, because I don´t read the TOS.  Anyway, now  I am quiet till November 19.th.

Now the community can be happy without me, my messages and my comments!

All the best to you all 

Teddy

PS: Do I have any chance to reverse this punishment? How? 

Hello @Teddy

if you look on my 1st message here, you will see that I tried my best to avoid this situation and also tried to guide you in first place. As a reaction you deleted that post without responding (that's totally fine, I'm not looking for responses or attention) but you didn't understood the original concern and left your other sourced posts as it is even after knowing.

Still I tried to keep this as a private matter so I created a private ticket which wasn't responded till 2 days. (You can see I've mentioned that too in my 1st message here). I'm not saying team doesn't want to look on that, but they might have overlooked it due to a pressure of a big release of our 1st payout. I don't think so anyone can access the private ticket but here it is.
https://community.narrative.or...ic/content-reposting

So I approached to community about how to treat such posts like these. And this was a community effort to keep the Narrative safe and secure from any malpractices. We can't sell/use someone else's work/efforts for any kind of personal gain. It's a very simple rule.

English is neither my 1st language. May be still I'm making a lot of mistakes but I took it in another way. I struggle a lot just to improvise it. I've also put a story about that journey in this post.

https://www.narrative.org/post...-of-the-comfort-zone

Right now we are more inclined to Narrative related posts. So it's very easy to get it lost for other posts.

I'll be more happy to see you in action again, trust me. As I said, I have no intention to damage anyone here and I guess no one else's too. We all are having a single goal, to make Narrative a World's Journal. 

Nothing is better than realization of our mistakes and everyone deserves a second chance. Let's hope team take it on a positive note to do something in this case.

Thank you for your good intention! If I had a chance to see this post before, maybe the things were different now. I never had any intention to damage narrative.  But, ....  life goes on! Will see! Thank you anyway. 

The deletion was a prompt reaction because I understand now, that this was not permitted. I was in my work in the afternoon and I saw the narrative massages on my smartphone and I was so surprised. No chance to change anything, it was too late. I wish, I had more time to react. No warning! 

@Teddy I guess you got it in my comment but you stopped after deleting that post.  

@Cryptofornicator I suggested in other topics that if we had placed initial moderators like we have tribunal then we could have avoided such spamming. We all have very high hopes from the moderators as they will be the Narrative Cleaners Gestapo. 

@Teddy, I think your English is fine. Most first-language English speakers do not expect perfection from those whose English is a second language. If we can understand what you are saying, then we overlook imperfections. What is not permissible, however, is using someone else's work without proper attribution and requests for permission. This isn't simply a Narrative policy. It's also a matter of civil law in the U.S. and most Western countries. If it belongs to someone else, you can't use it. There are a few exceptions, but if you don't know what those are, you're best to stay away from it.

All that we ask going forward is that you learn from your mistakes. When you come off probation, continue doing what you do well with the Q&A posts and, if possible, add your own original posts. No one will blame you for imperfect English.

Teddy posted:

GARDEN GNOME PUBLICATIONS Thank you for your encouragement. Well, until November is a long time.  I hope I will stay here, but ... with no activities and comments, it is very hard to stay on the project, that I loved so much. Will see

@Teddy I hope the team will take another look at this and reduce the penalty , given the circumstances. 

@Teddy, I noticed your content (and downvoted it) before seeing it disappear. "My mistake was to post two free blogs from other sources." It was not a couple of posts, I noticed several posts. And I saw that at least one of them was certainly not free content.

Part of the other content is selling t-shirts. Which is fine, but I see it as promotion, not as a contribution to the community by "creating logos". This is another story, of course, but it doesn't help to have readers acknowledge your "investment".

On Narrative, as most other platforms, you are rewarded for the engagement on what you post. So, free or not, reposting something that's not your, without significant contribution to it is at least unfair, to readers and to other writers. You're getting rewards with little effort. You speak about investment, but I prefer to read who invest in producing original content, asking for my time and attention providing some value, as they say. You publish under your name. I expect something original and significative from you. It's not about AUP or legality (which of course matter too). It's about being fair and respectful toward your readers and the other writers.

I too am not a native English, and I paid (and still pay) a toll for this. Still, I try, because I want to be fair and authentic with my readers, like any writer should do. They appreciate and usually forgive my too many slips. Much better than "borrowing" content from someone else.

It's good to hear that you're sorry for the "mistake" but I'm not convinced by your justifications.

That said, I'm sorry the punishment was so heavy. The lack of notice it's a pity but it's a common practice on all platforms. The team has to take immediate actions to protect the quality of the platform and can't wait for feedback. But this is also a beta and the team is still tuning the machine, so maybe the long period is an unwanted effect. I would welcome the option of having you back sooner, and I wouldn't mind the team making an exception. I'm the one open to second and third chances.

The minute someone is publicly accused, then they have the right to be present and speak on their own behalf - before any action is taken.

This did not happen.

 

   @David Dreezer commented along the lines of
"that the content was taken down, what more do you want?"

VICO BISCOTTI I don´t want to take any advantages of others, just I tried to help the community to be well known like ( https://twitter.com/NarrativeModer8 : hope this is ok to show, when not I will delete the link) but also If you find offended about the Logos I will delete this post also too. I don´t make any profit on redbubble. Check my posts, if you don´t like something, let me know. My contribution was to share values. I understand, that only original posts are accepted, even if they contain only a few words. Sorry again!

Colleen Ryer posted:

The minute someone is publicly accused, then they have the right to be present and speak on their own behalf - before any action is taken.

This did not happen.

 

   @David Dreezer commented along the lines of
"that the content was taken down, what more do you want?"

@Colleen Ryer

I can understand your point but look on this.

If you had put a comment on my post by saying I'm doing something wrong (when I was actually doing it) and I don't respond on it, instead I try to cover it up by deleting that whole mess and get relax like nothing is happened for 2 days then I guess I don't deserve any other chance to speak on my own behalf because when I had that at first time I tried to ignore it.

If I had took your comment seriously (instead of counting it as a normal comment) then I would have responded by taking complete responsibility of my actions and tried to improvise it by doing some necessary changes on my all the contents or by removing them all by myself. That would be more proper way if I really cared about a community or a platform.

Still, the team is there to take their decision whatever they feel appropriate for the community, either to lower the penalty or to keep it as it is. 

I really think @Teddy's punishment is way too severe! Temporary loss of rep is fine because yes, you can't re-post someone else's content but a ban till November?? C'mon, the everybody-knows-who, the user who maliciously trolled others out of unwarranted revenge is conduct-negative only till July.

@Teddy made a mistake but he's been always supportive towards others and also he owned up to his deeds - with a delay that has cost him dearly but you know what? All of this wouldn't have happened if we had THE MOST BASIC FEATURE here in support of which many Narrators have been drumming from the beginning: DIRECT MESSAGING! Then it would have been sorted between @Blogger Krunal and @Teddy in no time.

So, my vote is: amnesty for @Teddy in June!

And English is not my first language either. You're fine, practice makes perfect. Also, install the free version of Grammarly, it really helps, even native English speakers

BLOGGER KRUNAL Sorry KRUNAL, but this example do not represent my attitude. Just to clarify , I  don´t "try to cover it up by deleting that whole mess and get relax like nothing is happened for 2 days "  This is not my story, it looks like this, but is not. I was convinced, it is OK to post free content (an this is my mistake) but after your comment, I was surprised and I answer. After your response, immediately I deleted the post, because I understood, was not permitted. When I come Home I had no chance to review my post, because all are deleted and my conduct was already negative (from 100 to zero). I had no possibility to appeal. Late I remembered about this chat and I log in today after many days and I discovered" a message for me and this blog. ... too late. 

Teddy posted:

BLOGGER KRUNAL Sorry KUNAL, but this example do not represent my attitude. Just to clarify , I  don´t "try to cover it up by deleting that whole mess and get relax like nothing is happened for 2 days "  This is not my story, it looks like this, but is not. I was convinced, it is OK to post free content (an this is my mistake) but after your comment, I was surprised and I answer. After your response, immediately I deleted the post, because I understood, was not permitted. When I come Home I had no chance to review my post, because all are deleted and my conduct was already negative (from 100 to zero). I had no possibility to appeal. Late I remembered about this chat and I log in today after many days and I discovered" a message for me and this blog. ... to late. 

@Teddy well you already posted another article after that and I can see your few comments too. So you had that time. Now I don't want to dig down more on this. Better I rest my case here. As I said I'm completely fine whatever the team take the decision and I haven't hold any personal grudge here and I hope no one will, including you. As you made a good image here which will be the same, once you are back for sure. And we all will welcome you again with your own content this time  

Thank you! I appreciate your support. I think I found here really helpful and understanding people. I see and recognize your fairness. So I will accept any decisions with any comments. You are a great team here Whatever is come, I thank you for giving me the chance to express myself, with all my emotions. I like the level of respect on these chat. 

@Teddy, glad we had an open discussion here. On my part, this is settled. Hope the team will revise the penalty, not just in your case but in general, since @Gosia Rokicka is right by saying that there's no consistency between penalties for severe conduct and this case. I think the cumulative effects of the penalties went too far here.

You certainly don't need to - and shouldn't - remove what I don't like. Unless you violate terms and AUP, all of your content has the right to be here. My feedback is just my opinion. It's ok to promote oneself or your business, or anything else. Most of us are in the same need. I'd just don't like when it's someway disguised, nor this is a place for advertising posts.

The twitter account may be a honest and useful contribution but, to me, looks like it wants to look like an "official" channel from Narrative - and attract readers because of that -, which is not. I'd certainly prefer a more "Teddy" thing. Again, my opinion.

Sometimes I give open feedback in my comments, sometimes I don't and downvote. This is not lack of respect. We just don't have time or will for discussing everything. What matters is trying to be open most times and be fair with votes.

If the team will let you come back earlier you're most welcome.

I had to think about this. The AUP says no personally identifiable information. While email addresses are included as an example, in my mind, that's personal email addresses rather than business email addresses. But what's being promoted isn't really a business. It's an assembly of persons, and may not even officially be a legal entity. I think the inclusion of an email address breaks the spirit of the AUP in this case, especially since it is a gmail address and not a domain name address.

If it's only about using gmail address then how we can bifurcate such thing for a community to allow their domain address but not their gmail one?

As I've seen such communities (obviously not solid on paper) they only prefer to use gmail or yahoo addresses. 

@Blogger Krunal, I think it has to be spelled out in the AUP. But there's also a presentation element. I do sometimes use my phone # in conjunction with my professional brands. Contact information is all over my website. If I'm promoting blogging services, using solid content marketing techniques, a banner at the end of the post, or a text link with a phone number, is a typical call to action. The benefit to anyone interested in my service is that they don't have to click the link and go to my website. They can contact me from the outpost at Narrative. It's a marketing technique.

I think the intent of the AUP is to facilitate a safe environment so people aren't passing around personal contact information to people they don't know who could use it for nefarious purposes. So, in part, wisdom and sound judgment must be used, but the platform needs to spell things out clearly in the AUP.

@Garden Gnome Publications Yes, you're right about AUP for protecting such private information and also to prevent some other misuse.

Another post acting in a same way even after suggesting. 

https://www.narrative.org/post...hole-i-hope-it-helps

I think further more clarification by @Narrative Network Team on AUP about upto what extent a user can share such contact details (personal mail/profession domain, Discord/Telegram Links, contact number, etc)  will be helpful to deal with such posts. FYI @David Dreezer @MOLLY O

Please stop linking to content to discuss AUP violations.  It is okay if you want to discuss the topic, but refrain from calling out posts, please. If you see an AUP violation, then downvote it accordingly.   It should not be a group support discussion on individual posts. Please note that this site is open for all to read. And, we don't want this to become a place where members begin to attack each other (well intended or not).  

If you are not sure if a post is an AUP violation, but the quality is bad, downvote as low quality.  Low quality content does not receive rewards. ..no matter how often they post.

We can see many upvotes on such posts until it gets discovered here in front of community. We can see the history on this topic and on other topics on community site too. So I don't think so just reporting over platform is helping right now. 

I don't know why we're taking it lightly and punishing those who reports such things instead of looking on those posts being notified. 

I don't think anyone is interested of making a group of attackers here. We all are working to make the platform spam free. If it sounds odd to the team then we should stop reporting such posts and let it be if team takes it in another way.

And one more thing, the original question is missed to be answered where the team members were tagged in one of the earlier message. Here I see a lack of timely followup by team on such topics/questions until it becomes hot in community. 

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