I tried reporting every spam post I saw posted today, but voting cap foiled me.

Service: Narrative

I was able to report all of the spam posts that were published between about 10:30am and 3:30 pm - but only that period of time - before I reached my voting limit for the day.

You say you want the community to govern itself, but the spammers have literally made it impossible for any one person to report all AUP violations over even a 12 hour period, let alone 24 hours. With so many spam posts, there's no way we'll get 5 people to vote all of them down to low quality. Most people in Discord aren't even bothering to downvote because they don't want to throw away their votes when we can't even be sure the spam will be removed ever, let alone in a timely fashion. And yes, there is a discussion on why no one wants to publish anything today, and why no one wants to expend the effort to report the spam. Multiple people have stated they're staying away from the site while the spammers are running rampant.

We NEED an automated solution to this problem. And we need it yesterday.

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The spammers are still at it posting links to illegal video streaming. Y'all gotta log in on the weekends to deal with this stuff, and either increase the voting limit, remove AUP violation reports from the voting count, or install Narrative's version of Akismet on here. Or hire on a few willing community members as contractors to help you clean up the mess - keeping track of what we get rid of to make sure we're not abusing the spam cleaning powers. My client rate is on a sliding scale starting at $150/hr for my usual content services, but I'd take $25 an hour for it. That's about what I'd be making from my old job moderating for Viacom if they hadn't eliminated the message boards I helped mod.

We can't solve it. We don't have to solve this. No self-proclaimed sheriffs because then abuses are possible. However, anti-spam rules, rules and rules. For example immediately a rule on the limit of daily posts. I can make a proposal: under reputation 50 only 1 post a day; under 80 of reputation 2 posts per day; above 80 allow even 3 posts per day. They are more than sufficient to guarantee a minimum of self-selection also by users.

 

Sardart posted:

We can't solve it. We don't have to solve this. No self-proclaimed sheriffs because then abuses are possible. However, anti-spam rules, rules and rules. For example immediately a rule on the limit of daily posts. I can make a proposal: under reputation 50 only 1 post a day; under 80 of reputation 2 posts per day; above 80 allow even 3 posts per day. They are more than sufficient to guarantee a minimum of self-selection also by users.

 

Sounds great, thank you indeed!

We need rules and enforcement of those rules. It's that easy.

I tried to downvote on some of the accounts already reported by @Colleen Ryer but it's a waste of time. They will always outnumber our downvotes. Those accounts simply shouldn't be there.

https://community.narrative.or...63#17645279206885063

It makes no sense to ask the community to waste time in continuing downvoting blatant cheaters. Like any other platform, cheaters should be kicked away. I don't see reasons to keep them in.

@Sardart has hit upon the right solution. No one needs to post more than three times a day. No one.

If someone is posting true quality, they don't have time to post more than three times a day. And since most of the spam is coming from newly created accounts, because it's so easy to set up and account and start spamming the platform with copied/pasted content, a handful of bad actors can overtake the platform with little effort. 

The Narrative reporting page boasts of 3,000 unique visitors in the past 30 days while showing off 8,868 members. How many of those members are actually active? If we're lucky, maybe 20%. That would mean about 1,700 members are actually posting. The site has just over 15,000 posts and has been active for only five months. That's an average of 1,000 posts per month, which means not everyone is posting every day. But how many posts are done by spammers and plagiarists?

With a 10 post per day limit, 5 spammers can post 50 trash posts per day at a rate of 1,500 per month. What this means, effectively, is that we've got just a handful of bad actors who have learned how easy it is to set up an account and post several trash posts in succession--like, 10 in just two minutes.

With only 1,000 posts (roughly) per month being published, I'd say that probably 60% of them are trash posts, judging from the Discover page. That's 600 posts per month. And most of that is probably published by one or two people with multiple accounts. Here are some of the account names posting this garbage content (all similar), which tells me that these accounts are likely just one person managing all of the accounts in order to get around the 10-post limit per day.

  • ertyht687i
  • ufc242live
  • raju
  • Kevin Brown
  • teereerewr
  • azam
  • nayok1125

They're all accounts with rep less than 50. Limiting their posting to once per day would severely limit the trash getting onto the Discover page. What would likely happen is these kinds of bad actors would set up more accounts and continue posting. But that would make it more difficult for them to persist as much of their time would be spent on new account creation. And it would make it easier for the good Narrators to downvote that content to make it even more discouraging for them. As is, the effort of five Narrators to combat the trash is HUGE while the effort of the trash creators is minimal. We need to flip the odds, and I believe the best way to do that is to limit the number of posts per day across the board. A tiered approach similar to what Sardart suggested would apropos. This is absolutely critical.

I hope that the staff will put in place simple, automatic and opportune forms to limit spam, just as it happened long ago for the sale of niches. I repeat, we don't have to be the users to solve this. I don't like self-proclaimed cleaners.

I just went through the Discover page and right-clicked all the spam posts, opening them in new tabs, so I could downvote them. At one time, I have 20 tabs open just with Narrative spam posts. And that wasn't all of them! It's clear that some of these accounts are set up specifically for a single post or a series of post on related spam content. Their names:

  • dadad
  • oray
  • Streaming Online (used to post spam about streaming online)
  • Wedding nightmare (used to post spam about Wedding Nightmare)
  • drt6yfuryh
  • originalhd
  • UFC 242 live online
  • jonikemod

And some of this wasn't in English, so I got to downvote it as AUP violation. These are posts just within the last hour. We have reached the point of absurdity.

 

 

@Christina Gleason.  Thanks for your efforts but everyone is correct, you cannot keep up with the spammer.  We are aware of  what is going on with the spamming and are evaluating response options for controlling.   In the interim, we are removing offending posts.

MOLLY O posted:

@Christina Gleason.  Thanks for your efforts but everyone is correct, you cannot keep up with the spammer.  We are aware of  what is going on with the spamming and are evaluating response options for controlling.   In the interim, we are removing offending posts.

I didn't know if these had to be reported in order for them to be removed, so I was trying to help the cleanup process. (Also, I wanted to see how much spam COULD be reported before reaching the voting cap. It's not something I planned to repeat just for fun.) 

I just felt really bad for anyone who tried posting something real yesterday.

Yep this same spammer posted 10 more posts (AUP violations at the least because they are not in English).   The account needs removed!  Again spamming our feeds so that a decent post can't be seen.  

Good to see the Team is on to it.  Thanks for letting everyone know @MOLLY O.

I hope we can move from being reactive, to being proactive, at some point.  The Community has been warning about the asymmetry in this equation (and others) for a long time now.  It is dispiriting to try so hard to see ahead and communicate what we see, only for it to be ignored and for the platform to suffer from it having been ignored.  It not only demotivates us to make any effort - it also kills our faith that the ship is being steered skilfully, casting doubt on whether it will ever arrive safely at the desired destination.

I am hanging on to a scrap of hope that things will change going forwards.

MOLLY O posted:

@Christina Gleason.  Thanks for your efforts but everyone is correct, you cannot keep up with the spammer.  We are aware of  what is going on with the spamming and are evaluating response options for controlling.   In the interim, we are removing offending posts.

Wow... that sounded almost like an admission that the holy manifesto is nonsense. That you can’T dump the task of fighting spam, plagiarism, and malicious users onto the community.  It doesn’t work, does it?  Maybe you should retract that pompous post you made a couple of weeks ago. Admit that your users were right, and you were wrong.  And start listening to you users.   

But if past history is any indication, you’ll get out your sharpies and show us how you were right all along.

WillD posted:
MOLLY O posted:

@Christina Gleason.  Thanks for your efforts but everyone is correct, you cannot keep up with the spammer.  We are aware of  what is going on with the spamming and are evaluating response options for controlling.   In the interim, we are removing offending posts.

Wow... that sounded almost like an admission that the holy manifesto is nonsense. That you can’T dump the task of fighting spam, plagiarism, and malicious users onto the community.  It doesn’t work, does it?  Maybe you should retract that pompous post you made a couple of weeks ago. Admit that your users were right, and you were wrong.  And start listening to you users.   

But if past history is any indication, you’ll get out your sharpies and show us how you were right all along.

I would have put things a bit more...diplomatically. But that was kind of the point I was trying to make. We're supposedly in charge of community governance, but we are completely lacking the tools we need to govern the community against such attacks. So, yeah...something's gotta give.

The Sharpie line was a bit harsh. 

Christina Gleason posted:
WillD posted:
MOLLY O posted:

@Christina Gleason.  Thanks for your efforts but everyone is correct, you cannot keep up with the spammer.  We are aware of  what is going on with the spamming and are evaluating response options for controlling.   In the interim, we are removing offending posts.

Wow... that sounded almost like an admission that the holy manifesto is nonsense. That you can’T dump the task of fighting spam, plagiarism, and malicious users onto the community.  It doesn’t work, does it?  Maybe you should retract that pompous post you made a couple of weeks ago. Admit that your users were right, and you were wrong.  And start listening to you users.   

But if past history is any indication, you’ll get out your sharpies and show us how you were right all along.

I would have put things a bit more...diplomatically. But that was kind of the point I was trying to make. We're supposedly in charge of community governance, but we are completely lacking the tools we need to govern the community against such attacks. So, yeah...something's gotta give.

The Sharpie line was a bit harsh. 

I thought the sharpie line was hilarious!

The pattern of behavior from the Narrative team is consistent with other failed startups I've seen - and yes, also with Donald Trump.

Just keep doubling down on the same failed ideas and policies.  Never admit you were wrong.  Never listen to your critics.  

 

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