Is it time to certify membership?

Service: Narrative

It seems that the Narrative community is in deep trouble with illegal spam posts and something drastic needs to be done before it is too late. I think it is time to consider the simple step of making everyone certify who they are! This will put an absolute stop to the problems in my opinion. I think that eventually the membership will need certification anyway and now is the best time to put this in place before the damage is irreparable. The certification process is not that difficult and I would even donate some of my Nrve to assist in the cost of getting people certified if that would help!

Please give this some serious consideration! Thank you for all of your time and efforts on our behalf.

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Perhaps we can even find a way to certify existing members who can't afford the certification price and establish the certification requirement for new members? I think this is the single most important step we can be taking right now.

I know that most corporate decisions come down to the actual cost of implementing them. In this case I suggest that many members of the Narrative community might be able to offset some of the costs of universal certification through Nrve donations and possibly even cash donations if they are approached about it.

I know that I would be willing to contribute cash to assist those who can't afford the cost of certification. Existing members could also perhaps work off the cost of certification through Nrve payments. I'm simply saying that active members of the Narrative community are in a position to help defray some of the costs of certification if they are asked about it.

Hi Joe! I'm against mandatory certification.  I would have never signed up in the first place if it were.  It's not the price of it, either, but philosophical reasons - i.e. "showing your papers" is a demand for my private information and I take it very seriously.  I did eventually certify, after evaluating the benefits of it. 

I believe it is important to find a balance between making it easy for legit new people to publish, and controlling the spam - which everyone is frustrated with.  But the spam is something that can be helped a lot by software and programming, it's just something the team can work on and it hopefully will improve.

This just my opinion Joe, I'm sure others would have some insight and even agree with you

ANTIMETICA  I love your reply and I share many of your concerns and values or I wouldn't call myself anarchistbanjo! I also respect your choice.  I feel that it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't type of choice. So in this case I've put my personal opinions to the side and simply share that I now believe (and I could very well be wrong) that Narrative does need universal certification if it is to survive and I say this for many considerations...not just the spam posts.

I also believe that universal certification would solidify Nrve values and make the entire project more viable and attractive in the long run. In the two months that I've been on Narrative I've seen the membership numbers stay at a little over 8,000 with only around 3,000 even visiting the site during the month.

This means very little growth in membership...and an increase in platform abuse. Something has to give and I think (again I could very well be wrong) that certification goes along with blockchain technology like it or not. I don't like it, but I accept it just like you did in getting certified.

I know there will be others who will feel like @Antimetica does.

Certification is a hurdle on many levels.

But I agree we should be seriously considering it as a solution to several problems the platform has been experiencing - problems which are likely to get worse with time, not better.

Universal certification is not the only solution, and possibly not the best.  But it should be duly listed and weighed against the other solutions, as methodically as possible.

From what I can see, at this juncture, the cheapest and most beneficial option is to impose a 1 post per day limit to posting for low rep Narrators, and perhaps allow two or three posts per day for higher rep Narrators.  Then develop the functionality to only give access to posting more than once per day to people who stake NRVE, and pay a small amount of NRVE for the extra post or two they make in the same 24 hours period.

This not only stops spam dead in its tracks, but it improves the health of the economy by giving people an incentive to hold and spend NRVE on the platform.  It also helps everyone focus on quality.  If it costs a bit of NRVE to post more than once, most people will post just the once per day, and will make sure that one post is as good as it can be.

 

MALKAZOID  My head tells me that  you are right, but my heart tells me that we can beat Voice to the punch by getting there first! If we could get ahead of Voice that would be so awesome! It would really put Narrative on the map! So, my head or my heart?

J Bandel posted:

MALKAZOID  My head tells me that  you are right, but my heart tells me that we can beat Voice to the punch by getting there first! If we could get ahead of Voice that would be so awesome! It would really put Narrative on the map! So, my head or my heart?

I am curious as to why you think it's important to "beat Voice to the punch"?

Why do people have loyalty to Narrative?

If Voice - or Okuna or Trybe or Cent or Sapien or Stish - builds a better platform, that's GREAT!  I'll happily use it.

 

 

J Bandel posted:

MALKAZOID  My head tells me that  you are right, but my heart tells me that we can beat Voice to the punch by getting there first! If we could get ahead of Voice that would be so awesome! It would really put Narrative on the map! So, my head or my heart?

Yes, Voice...  My guess is Voice will use a certification process that is less costly than ours - so that would be the first work item if we wanted to beat them to the punch: change our certification process to a more economical one.  This would also almost certainly mean a less accurate one, but I do think we can sacrifice a little bit of accuracy.

But the biggest problem I see with universal certification is the Narrative Company itself: I don't perceive them as adaptable enough to change their vision in this fundamental way.  From a practical standpoint, I think they will try a lot of other options before they feel they have to resort to universal certification.  That's another way in which the post limits + staking + small NRVE fee for extra posts per day - is cheaper.  Cheaper to implement, but also cheaper in the amount of time we have to spend going blue in the face advocating it and in the amount of time the Team has to spend ignoring us... before something gets done.

Robert Nicholson  I am loyal to the brand. It's in my nature and I can't help it. I don't change friends very often either and live a rather boring life...chuckle. There is something almost emotional about my connection with Narrative and I have never found that anywhere else. My heart just tells me that Narrative is sooooo close to finding the winning solution.....maybe just a few changes....

Malkazoid posted:
J Bandel posted:

MALKAZOID  My head tells me that  you are right, but my heart tells me that we can beat Voice to the punch by getting there first! If we could get ahead of Voice that would be so awesome! It would really put Narrative on the map! So, my head or my heart?

Yes, Voice...  My guess is Voice will use a certification process that is less costly than ours - so that would be the first work item if we wanted to beat them to the punch: change our certification process to a more economical one.  This would also almost certainly mean a less accurate one, but I do think we can sacrifice a little bit of accuracy.

But the biggest problem I see with universal certification is the Narrative Company itself: I don't perceive them as adaptable enough to change their vision in this fundamental way.  From a practical standpoint, I think they will try a lot of other options before they feel they have to resort to universal certification.  That's another way in which the post limits + staking + small NRVE fee for extra posts per day - is cheaper.  Cheaper to implement, but also cheaper in the amount of time we have to spend going blue in the face advocating it and in the amount of time the Team has to spend ignoring us... before something gets done.

Maybe there is a way to encourage certification even while still allowing the normal registration process? Giving added benefits to those that have certified more than what is already there? While limiting the number of posts that are not certified...I really hate that, but if people could use Nrve for the certification process it might work out...

I'm just thinking out loud.... maybe someone will come up with a good idea that the team will like....a little brain storming can't hurt and I haven't contributed to the discussion before...maybe you and Antimetica are right, maybe there are better ways...all I know is that right now the model is broken by hackers!

J Bandel posted:
Malkazoid posted:
J Bandel posted:

MALKAZOID  My head tells me that  you are right, but my heart tells me that we can beat Voice to the punch by getting there first! If we could get ahead of Voice that would be so awesome! It would really put Narrative on the map! So, my head or my heart?

Yes, Voice...  My guess is Voice will use a certification process that is less costly than ours - so that would be the first work item if we wanted to beat them to the punch: change our certification process to a more economical one.  This would also almost certainly mean a less accurate one, but I do think we can sacrifice a little bit of accuracy.

But the biggest problem I see with universal certification is the Narrative Company itself: I don't perceive them as adaptable enough to change their vision in this fundamental way.  From a practical standpoint, I think they will try a lot of other options before they feel they have to resort to universal certification.  That's another way in which the post limits + staking + small NRVE fee for extra posts per day - is cheaper.  Cheaper to implement, but also cheaper in the amount of time we have to spend going blue in the face advocating it and in the amount of time the Team has to spend ignoring us... before something gets done.

Maybe there is a way to encourage certification even while still allowing the normal registration process? Giving added benefits to those that have certified more than what is already there? While limiting the number of posts that are not certified...I really hate that, but if people could use Nrve for the certification process it might work out...

I'm just thinking out loud.... maybe someone will come up with a good idea that the team will like....a little brain storming can't hurt and I haven't contributed to the discussion before...maybe you and Antimetica are right, maybe there are better ways...all I know is that right now the model is broken by hackers!

I LOVE that you're participating in the discussion!

I think allowing people to certify with NRVE is really needed - a lot of folks support that.  The Team let us know that this would require a fair bit of manual effort on their end since they would have to buy USD with the NRVE (Onfido won't take NRVE as a payment, understandably, LOL).

In a way, certification would already be part of the posting limits options a lot of folks support.  Since you may need to be higher than low rep in order to post more than once per day, certifying probably pops you into a higher post limit.

Malkazoid posted:
J Bandel posted:

MALKAZOID  My head tells me that  you are right, but my heart tells me that we can beat Voice to the punch by getting there first! If we could get ahead of Voice that would be so awesome! It would really put Narrative on the map! So, my head or my heart?

Yes, Voice...  My guess is Voice will use a certification process that is less costly than ours - so that would be the first work item if we wanted to beat them to the punch: change our certification process to a more economical one.  This would also almost certainly mean a less accurate one, but I do think we can sacrifice a little bit of accuracy.

...

Joe, I do think for instance if mandatory certification were implemented right now this minute on the spot, with the flip of a switch, it would stanch the bleeding currently happening with the spam.  It's just that in a larger picture one of my primary attractions to cryptocurrency was empowering people worldwide, and moving towards a true global economy.  That means, making it accessible to everyone.  So my issue is concerned with accessibility to wealth building and economy, and I do think certification is a big block to that.  

What @malkazoid proposes about limiting posts, based on reputation, I would be on board with that.  I've told Newsocialmedia I'm against staking being tied to posting limits (they have written a lot about this particular suggestion), so there's parts of these ideas I support, but not others.  

A cheaper certification process sounds good on the surface, but considering these are 3rd parties that do this, I'm not convinced cheaper would mean better, or safer.  You get what you pay for usually.  Unless Voice plans to do it in-house, which would be a significant investment on their part, but not out of the question, considering the big bags that will be involved when that launches.

It kind of doesn't matter what I think, in the end the Company will decide.  I'm disappointed in the lack of response, feedback, from the company.  Even being told no is better than nothing.  

Antimetica  What we think does count and I really believe that if we found a good solution the team would recognize it! They've made it clear that they run the show, but they've also made it clear that they are open to suggestions. I think your point about a global economy is vital and important, but perhaps allowing those in 3rd world countries to certify with Nrve is appropriate. Perhaps we should ask people around the world what would be effective ways for each of them to become certified? Why not ask for options on ways that people from different cultures and social conditions can be certified? We know people have access to the internet or they wouldn't be here. What kind of photo ID is available to them? If they are here for the crypto they will need to set up accounts anyway using some form of acceptable ID. Guess what I'm saying is that anyone here that plans on earning some Nrve will at some point need to prove who they are to somebody so they can cash out. So the ability to have a valid ID is a given...that is not an excuse anyone can use.  Just thinking out loud!

J Bandel posted:

Antimetica  What we think does count and I really believe that if we found a good solution the team would recognize it! They've made it clear that they run the show, but they've also made it clear that they are open to suggestions. I think your point about a global economy is vital and important, but perhaps allowing those in 3rd world countries to certify with Nrve is appropriate. Perhaps we should ask people around the world what would be effective ways for each of them to become certified? Why not ask for options on ways that people from different cultures and social conditions can be certified? We know people have access to the internet or they wouldn't be here. What kind of photo ID is available to them? If they are here for the crypto they will need to set up accounts anyway using some form of acceptable ID. Guess what I'm saying is that anyone here that plans on earning some Nrve will at some point need to prove who they are to somebody so they can cash out. So the ability to have a valid ID is a given...that is not an excuse anyone can use.  Just thinking out loud!

Thank you for always being kind, and encouraging

I went and looked at our current certification provider, Ofido.  You can see the countries they serve and the documents they accept here:

https://onfido.com/supported-documents/

We're lucky because we live in a country that accepts 'other documents' meaning they'll take our DL or ID.  But look at how many are passport only. 

I don't know about you, but having looked into the cost of getting a passport, I remember in the US it's like $150 or something, sorry I don't have the figure on the top of my head.  And I would guess in those light blue shaded countries (passport only), having a passport is probably only something those considered in the upper or middle classes would even have.  This is the Ofido example, I do not know what other KYC/certification services companies offer, but it might be similar.

 

Antimetica posted:
J Bandel posted:

Antimetica  What we think does count and I really believe that if we found a good solution the team would recognize it! They've made it clear that they run the show, but they've also made it clear that they are open to suggestions. I think your point about a global economy is vital and important, but perhaps allowing those in 3rd world countries to certify with Nrve is appropriate. Perhaps we should ask people around the world what would be effective ways for each of them to become certified? Why not ask for options on ways that people from different cultures and social conditions can be certified? We know people have access to the internet or they wouldn't be here. What kind of photo ID is available to them? If they are here for the crypto they will need to set up accounts anyway using some form of acceptable ID. Guess what I'm saying is that anyone here that plans on earning some Nrve will at some point need to prove who they are to somebody so they can cash out. So the ability to have a valid ID is a given...that is not an excuse anyone can use.  Just thinking out loud!

Thank you for always being kind, and encouraging

I went and looked at our current certification provider, Ofido.  You can see the countries they serve and the documents they accept here:

https://onfido.com/supported-documents/

We're lucky because we live in a country that accepts 'other documents' meaning they'll take our DL or ID.  But look at how many are passport only. 

I don't know about you, but having looked into the cost of getting a passport, I remember in the US it's like $150 or something, sorry I don't have the figure on the top of my head.  And I would guess in those light blue shaded countries (passport only), having a passport is probably only something those considered in the upper or middle classes would even have.  This is the Ofido example, I do not know what other KYC/certification services companies offer, but it might be similar.

 

I remember looking at the different countries when I went through the certification process. It did make me glad that I lived in the United States where I could use my driver's license.  And this is a real concern but my question remains valid....each person will need to prove their identity to cash their Nrve. What kind of ID will they use for that? And can we make use of the same ID?  Will onfido customize their process for us? How can we make use of the same ID's that people use to create accounts so they can cash their Nrve? Something doesn't add up here... Just thinking...

Just to be clear, but you probably knew this, certification and KYC is not required to withdraw NRVE from the platform into your own personal wallet.

Cashing out via an exchange (converting to fiat)

Each exchange has different document requirements for their KYC.  Bilaxy seems to take many different kinds, for withdrawing level 1, at least a national ID card which is accessible to most people I guess.

https://bilaxy.zendesk.com/hc/...60020457811-KYC-FAQs

Bilaxy is an exchange so very removed from the Narrative platform.  It's a separate thing from Ofido.  Ofido is a service that just processes identity documents.

I do know some people, like Meshak stbrians, use a local service in his town to convert his crypto.  He had to cash his NRVE to NEO, then swap to ETH (all which you can do without KYC) but to get the fiat for his ETH he had some fellow in his city convert it for him.  It sounded like a pretty involved process to be honest.

Antimetica posted:

Just to be clear, but you probably knew this, certification and KYC is not required to withdraw NRVE from the platform into your own personal wallet.

Cashing out via an exchange (converting to fiat)

Each exchange has different document requirements for their KYC.  Bilaxy seems to take many different kinds, for withdrawing level 1, at least a national ID card which is accessible to most people I guess.

https://bilaxy.zendesk.com/hc/...60020457811-KYC-FAQs

Bilaxy is an exchange so very removed from the Narrative platform.  It's a separate thing from Ofido.  Ofido is a service that just processes identity documents.

I do know some people, like Meshak stbrians, use a local service in his town to convert his crypto.  He had to cash his NRVE to NEO, then swap to ETH (all which you can do without KYC) but to get the fiat for his ETH he had some fellow in his city convert it for him.  It sounded like a pretty involved process to be honest.

Yes, I've never cashed out my Nrve and will need to go through the  process some day myself. I do have a coinbase account though and went through that  process. So it seems that people need to have at least a national identity card? That should be enough to certify people shouldn't it? I wonder if there are providers that will take national identity cards as certification?

So what you are saying is that people with national identity cards can make it through Bilaxy and get crypto exchanged from one type to another, but then they will need to send it to the wallet of someone that can cash it out for them? If they don't have the means to do it themselves?

If Narrative could certify members using national identity cards and allow payment with Nrve the entire issue might be solved! I wonder how realistic that is?

Yep, you got it right.  I'm unsure what other document services are out there.  It's pretty wild the different requirements from exchange to another.  I wouldn't dismiss Ofido, quickly.  Colleen said they are based in the UK which gave her confidence over privacy concerns, and she's right - UK based businesses are held to a high standard to ensure privacy practices.  

Bilaxy is in Asia, I'm so sorry I'm not specific, as I'm not versed in Asian languages, and oddly, I can't find a physical address for them.  Also I just remembered, I think their KYC was a 3rd party service, I just do not remember the name of it. 

It seems all exchanges and platforms use a 3rd party service to do KYC, so I wouldn't expect Narrative company to bring that in-house.

We're lucky we can cash out fairly easily.  I convert mine to BTC and send it to my Cash App (Square) wallet, and then instantly deposit it to my bank account. Those last 2 steps are no fees.

Malkazoid posted:

Thanks for the Cash App heads up @Antimetica!

No problem! There is a fees of course through this whole thing, which is annoying but Cash App helps shave off a little in fees you would have in Coinbase.  

Using the O3 Neo Mobile wallet-

I've sold the NRVE for NEO (Switcheo exchange fee), then swap the NEO for BTC (ChangeNow fee) - in that Swap wizard deposit to address: form, I put my Cash App BTC address.  So the swapped BTC goes to the Cash App at that point.  Then I sell the BTC within the Cash App (free/no fee), and deposit to my fiat bank (no fee).

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