More copyright infringements, ongoing

Service: Narrative

Not naming names.

@Slaz gets all the props for somehow locating the original art this was stolen from (really, well done man):

https://www.narrative.org/post/abstract-painting-6

https://www.saatchiart.com/art.../860138/4956333/view

Just as we suspected, the account that was posting stock photo low res previews as his own sketches has been, for a good while now, spamming the platform with cropped in photos of other people's paintings, and claiming them as his own.

So more than a month on from our original discussion of this problematic user ( https://community.narrative.or...ther-people-s-images --  ) have we decided to take proper action yet?

In the last pay period, he stole $66 USD from the Rewards Pool ( 0.3 % of the pool ).  That's an improvement from the 199 USD ( 0.47 % of the Pool) from the previous April/May joint period.

But it would still only take 100 users doing what he does, to take 30% of the pool.  Better get a handle on this before word gets out that this hustle works.

Please keep in mind, in Nigeria for instance, the minimum wage is only N30,000 per month ( $85 USD ), recently up from N18,000 ( $56 USD ).

Child labor is common in Nigeria ( https://theconversation.com/ni...ing-in-a-city-100068 --  )  .  A family could teach their children to post plagiarised art on Narrative, and to upvote accounts, and earn more through that than the adults earn by working themselves.

I hope the Team is aware of the economics the platform is up against, when it comes to removing the incentive to spam Narrative with plagiarism.

Our current paradigm makes it impossible to ban people, and we also don't seem to be taking any action against accounts that plagiarise.

It makes the Voice model of requiring certification for all users ( https://www.narrative.org/post...option-for-narrative --  )   look like the only solution - but I hope it isn't: I like that people don't have to certify here and a lot of users do.

------

I've noted his posts get about 20 votes, systematically.  Not able to see what mix of downvotes and upvotes of course.  My guess is there are maybe 5 real Narrators downvoting them, and 15 users upvoting either because they are dummy accounts, or because they upvote everything on that niche in the hopes of their own low effort posts being upvoted.

This balance is struggling to get the posts below the low quality threshold.

Thoughts from Narrators and the Team would be appreciated.

One measure the system could take is to identify the accounts that are systematically upvoting his content, and demonetise their votes as applied to his content but only at rewards computation time.  This way, he would think his dummy accounts are still working, and still keeping his content above the low quality threshold often enough to profit.  But when the pay period arrives, the computation disregards those votes, resulting in no payout.

The system could also flag those accounts so if they start upvoting another account systematically, that new account is flagged as one to watch for infractions.

 

 

Original Post

Activity Stream

Malkazoid posted:

Not naming names.

@Slaz gets all the props for somehow locating the original art this was stolen from (really, well done man):

https://www.narrative.org/post/abstract-painting-6

https://www.saatchiart.com/art.../860138/4956333/view

Just as we suspected, the account that was posting stock photo low res previews as his own sketches has been, for a good while now, spamming the platform with cropped in photos of other people's paintings, and claiming them as his own.

So more than a month on from our original discussion of this problematic user ( https://community.narrative.or...ther-people-s-images --  ) have we decided to take proper action yet?

In the last pay period, he stole $66 USD from the Rewards Pool ( 0.3 % of the pool ).  That's an improvement from the 199 USD ( 0.47 % of the Pool) from the previous April/May joint period.

But it would still only take 100 users doing what he does, to take 30% of the pool.  Better get a handle on this before word gets out that this hustle works.

Please keep in mind, in Nigeria for instance, the minimum wage is only N30,000 per month ( $85 USD ), recently up from N18,000 ( $56 USD ).

Child labor is common in Nigeria ( https://theconversation.com/ni...ing-in-a-city-100068 --  )  .  A family could teach their children to post plagiarised art on Narrative, and to upvote accounts, and earn more through that than the adults earn by working themselves.

I hope the Team is aware of the economics the platform is up against, when it comes to removing the incentive to spam Narrative with plagiarism.

Our current paradigm makes it impossible to ban people, and we also don't seem to be taking any action against accounts that plagiarise.

It makes the Voice model of requiring certification for all users ( https://www.narrative.org/post...option-for-narrative --  )   look like the only solution - but I hope it isn't: I like that people don't have to certify here and a lot of users do.

------

I've noted his posts get about 20 votes, systematically.  Not able to see what mix of downvotes and upvotes of course.  My guess is there are maybe 5 real Narrators downvoting them, and 15 users upvoting either because they are dummy accounts, or because they upvote everything on that niche in the hopes of their own low effort posts being upvoted.

This balance is struggling to get the posts below the low quality threshold.

Thoughts from Narrators and the Team would be appreciated.

One measure the system could take is to identify the accounts that are systematically upvoting his content, and demonetise their votes as applied to his content but only at rewards computation time.  This way, he would think his dummy accounts are still working, and still keeping his content above the low quality threshold often enough to profit.  But when the pay period arrives, the computation disregards those votes, resulting in no payout.

The system could also flag those accounts so if they start upvoting another account systematically, that new account is flagged as one to watch for infractions.

 

 

I have restrained myself from joining issues with you on this Nigeria bashing. I may be tolerant in my disposition but others may not be. Hope your knowledge of Nigeria captures that aspect .

Please do well to tell your excited audience what the average cost of Internet access and its availability are in Nigeria and see if your math adds up. Hopefully it will make more economic sense.

NOTE: I do not wish to comment on the discussion at hand.

 

Osita posted:
 
 

I have restrained myself from joining issues with you on this Nigeria bashing. I may be tolerant in my disposition but others may not be. Hope your knowledge of Nigeria captures that aspect .

Please do well to tell your excited audience what the average cost of Internet access and its availability are in Nigeria and see if your math adds up. Hopefully it will make more economic sense.

NOTE: I do not wish to comment on the discussion at hand.

 

I am unsure how I have bashed Nigeria.

If I have shared incorrect information, be so kind as to correct me.

I don’t know the cost of internet connection in Nigeria, but clearly someone somewhere on Earth is finding it profitable to post plagiarized content.  I used Nigeria as an example because I at least have some notions of conditions there, because of the family connection you are already aware of.

It troubles me that you refuse to say anything about the problem this issue ticket is discussing, yet you are happy to misconstrue me as being the problem.  I wonder why that is?

 

The issue is serious, and worth mentioning that such lower rewards are only possible because of the amount of time Narrators put to dig up and downvote plagiarism. I know this probably still counts toward their reward, but obviously not enough to be worth maintaining it as the site keeps growing and more spam keeps on coming. 

@Malkazoid I don't see how you were bashing Nigeria. You do have Nigerian heritage, yes? You were pointing out the economics that makes it profitable to violate the rules on Narrative. If the certain accounts that are serial violators are from Nigeria, it would be ideal if they could be taught how to post content on here that isn't stolen, doesn't break any rules, and they could be making a legitimate living on here. It would likely mean they'd need to start new accounts so we didn't associate them with their bad behavior (including both the posting violations and the voting circle behavior) but spamming and copyright infringement cannot be abided.

@Osita - incidentally, I became curious to see if your claim about internet costs in Nigeria did indeed change the economics of my example significantly.  As you did not provide those costs, I dug around.

Apparently the cheapest solution is an internet cafe where one can go online for 20 minutes, for 50 Naira.  The person who is infringing, wherever they are from, is posting once per day on average.  A post of that nature can easily be done in 20 minutes.  So this scenario would cost 1500 Naira per month, or about $4.30 USD. 

Considering the stolen rewards amounted to an average of 88 USD per month, an expenditure of $4.30 USD per month would not change the allure of this hustle one bit.

Teddy posted:

Did you inform the narrators at least once about theyr copyright infrigements? If they ignore, they need to accept the consequences! 

Yes - the person knows.  He promised to follow the rules and give correct attribution, and instead, he started posting art that is much more difficult to trace, and attributing it as his own.  It is particularly unfair that there seems to be no consequences, considering how intense consequences were for you.

Colleen Ryer posted:

It would be better to remove any references to places. People who plagiarize come from anywhere, no need to single any one place out.

I'm allowed to give an example to illustrate a point.  And I happen to be half Nigerian.  Lets not be fragile.  We can talk about realities, yes?

If we avoid speaking clearly, problems never even get looked at, let alone solved.

Colleen Ryer posted:

It isn't about fragility. It's about not singling people out. 

The two are intimately related, if the feeling of being singled out came from a mere example.  I'm not interested in this platform being a place where we can't speak plainly.

But since we're on the topic, Thankgod happens to be a popular name in West Africa.  The example was well-considered because of that, and because it is at least a place I can talk about from personal experience.  If the value of that is somehow less important than making sure nobody goes out of their way to take offence, Narrative will be a boring place.

 

I don't care where plagarizers come from or the economics of where ever they come from. The issue is plagerizing on this platform. This is the only issue I'm interested in and the only one I'm willing to talk about.

Colleen Ryer posted:

I don't care where plagarizers come from or the economics of where ever they come from. The issue is plagerizing on this platform. This is the only issue I'm interested in and the only one I'm willing to talk about.

If you want to fight plagiarism, you have to be aware of the economics.  It is part and parcel of understanding how to balance the system to remove the motivation for plagiarism.  How else will the Team know how to balance the voting weights and algorithms in such a way as to remove the motivation for economic gain via plagiarism?

This is a content economy.  Not wanting to talk about economics seems bizarre. to me.

If you want to talk about plagiarism, be my guest - that's what this thread is about, despite the efforts to divert it away from that.  I'd love some input on the actual problem...

The economics are very important. I was in Iraq in 2005 when the insurgency picked up and American military forces and civilian contractors became targets. Military augments from other nations were also targets. It's important to realize that the insurgency was able to get some teeth because of the economic conditions in the country. Anti-Western terror cells were well funded. An average Iraqi could earn less in a day than the lowest wage worker in the U.S. makes per hour. But they could be taught to make an IED and receive $50 for doing so, which only took minutes to emplace. Had the economics been different, the insurgency could not have taken root as it would not have been profitable for local sheepherders to poke at the bear.

Low standards begets low standards. Narrative set up a negative feedback loop when it disclosed publicly that accounts will not be eliminated. If one person from a depressed economy anywhere in the world is able to profit from the platform's weaknesses, word will get out. When the problem gets too big to fight, quality content creators will give the platform over to the plagiarizers. This is a bigger problem than the troll in the first week of beta was. Much, MUCH BIGGER.

Vulnerabilities in a platform, any platform, allow people so inclined and who can figure it out, the opportunity to take advantage. Regardless of who, or where they are, it's the holes in the system that are being taken advantage of that need addressing. All the rest just results in distraction-and usually hard feelings, too IMO.

I hope the team will weigh in on Sol_Cycler's issue. 

Colleen Ryer posted:

Vulnerabilities in a platform, any platform, allow people so inclined and who can figure it out, the opportunity to take advantage. Regardless of who, or where they are, it's the holes in the system that are being taken advantage of that need addressing. All the rest just results in distraction-and usually hard feelings, too IMO.

I hope the team will weigh in on Sol_Cycler's issue. 

Through the example I gave, you can set an actual target to reduce an account's earnings to.  You can't do that, without looking at specific economic factors in regions where spending 20 minutes a day plagiarising on Narrative can earn you as much as a full time job.  You know this.  The only distraction here is the unwillingness to look at the numbers, because the numbers are the only way to be serious against plagiarism.  Vague sentiments about getting rid of plagiarism are a great start, but at some point you have to start looking at what that entails.

We will only reduce plagiarism of the sort we're seeing from that account, by reducing the motivation for it.

Based on the example provided, we know that it is probably already attractive to spam Narrative with plagiarised content if at the end of the month, it nets $8-10 USD or more.  That's a concrete target for us to aim to beat.  Accounts like the one under discussion should receive no more than that, otherwise the incentive will be there for a plagiarism cottage industry to bloom.  At $10 per month, given the time put in (about 10 hours per month), that's still about 3 times more than minimum wage, 'earned' in the safety of an internet cafe instead of breathing in dust and car fumes hawking products to motorists, and commonly getting hit by vehicles in the process.  

I'm sorry you don't appreciate the specific information I'm bringing to bear on this issue.

Lets make sure Narrative remains a fantastic opportunity for people all over the planet to be well compensated.  If the site gets flooded with people who aren't willing to contribute their own work, that opportunity vanishes for everyone - and the people who live in regions who need it the most, will be the ones to suffer that loss the most.

A symbiont helps the host.  Parasites can kill it.  Everyone can have a very rewarding, positive, symbiotic relationship with Narrative - whether they are from Seattle, Mumbai, or Lagos - but we have to do everything we can to specifically engineer the platform's systems to remove the incentive for a parasitic relationship.  That's the goal here.  To do that, we need well-informed targets - solid numbers we can use to calibrate the system with.  Now hopefully we can keep our eyes on that prize.

Sol_Cycler posted:
Colleen Ryer posted:

Vulnerabilities in a platform, any platform, allow people so inclined and who can figure it out, the opportunity to take advantage. Regardless of who, or where they are, it's the holes in the system that are being taken advantage of that need addressing. All the rest just results in distraction-and usually hard feelings, too IMO.

I hope the team will weigh in on Sol_Cycler's issue. 

Do you mean my conversation, " Niches about nothing other than promoting IP violations?"

If so, Molly did and in defense of the niches, but had nothing to say about how to keep them clean and no response to my suggestion that what's not wanted being added to the descriptions.

Sorry, @Former Member I should have been more specific. You said

"I believe that downvoting decreases our rewards and reputation for those taking the time to curate"

This was the issue I was referring to.

Malkazoid posted:
Colleen Ryer posted:

Vulnerabilities in a platform, any platform, allow people so inclined and who can figure it out, the opportunity to take advantage. Regardless of who, or where they are, it's the holes in the system that are being taken advantage of that need addressing. All the rest just results in distraction-and usually hard feelings, too IMO.

I hope the team will weigh in on Sol_Cycler's issue. 

Through the example I gave, you can set an actual target to reduce an account's earnings to.  You can't do that, without looking at specific economic factors in regions where spending 20 minutes a day plagiarising on Narrative can earn you as much as a full time job.  You know this.  The only distraction here is the unwillingness to look at the numbers, because the numbers are the only way to be serious against plagiarism.  Vague sentiments about getting rid of plagiarism are a great start, but at some point you have to start looking at what that entails.

We will only reduce plagiarism of the sort we're seeing from that account, by reducing the motivation for it.

Based on the example provided, we know that it is probably already attractive to spam Narrative with plagiarised content if at the end of the month, it nets $8-10 USD or more.  That's a concrete target for us to aim to beat.  Accounts like the one under discussion should receive no more than that, otherwise the incentive will be there for a plagiarism cottage industry to bloom.  At $10 per month, given the time put in (about 10 hours per month), that's still about 3 times more than minimum wage, 'earned' in the safety of an internet cafe instead of breathing in dust and car fumes hawking products to motorists, and commonly getting hit by vehicles in the process.  

I'm sorry you don't appreciate the specific information I'm bringing to bear on this issue.

Lets make sure Narrative remains a fantastic opportunity for people all over the planet to be well compensated.  If the site gets flooded with people who aren't willing to contribute their own work, that opportunity vanishes for everyone - and the people who live in regions who need it the most, will be the ones to suffer that loss the most.

A symbiont helps the host.  Parasites can kill it.  Everyone can have a very rewarding, positive, symbiotic relationship with Narrative - whether they are from Seattle, Mumbai, or Lagos - but we have to do everything we can to specifically engineer the platform's systems to remove the incentive for a parasitic relationship.  That's the goal here.  To do that, we need well-informed targets - solid numbers we can use to calibrate the system with.  Now hopefully we can keep our eyes on that prize.

I don't see anything at all preventing the use of neutral examples, if it's felt that examples are needed.

Colleen Ryer posted:
Malkazoid posted:
I don't see anything at all preventing the use of neutral examples, if it's felt that examples are needed.

No example is neutral.

You seem to have a scientific background.  Which scientist takes data but refuses to say where it was recorded for fear of offending?  

This is the internet - you and I are nobodies to each other, and to the team.  We can grow to be more to each other only through honest communication.  Communities aren't built from sticking to niceties and neutrality.  Real communities face stuff together. 

The only authority we have is when we speak specifically about things and places we actually know.  I'm not going to talk about Bangladesh, or Tajikistan, because I've never been there.  I'm going to talk about what I know, and the moment I stop doing that, please make a point of ignoring me.

And frankly, I'm motivated by more than just feeling protective of the platform.  It may not have occurred to you that I also mentioned Nigeria specifically because it breaks my heart to see the conditions there, despite the country being rich in resources, culture and vitality?  My family's involvement with Nigeria goes back to the Biafra civil war, when my mother was a journalist, covering it.  That's how she met my father.  After the wave of independence movements, there was such hope that Nigeria would be a leader in a Panafricanist union.  Part of why the country has struggled is through squandering of opportunities by prioritising relational, in-group and often corrupt ties over the building of a system that works for all.

So when I see an account that is likely from the country of my father, pulling down an opportunity that could be so good for everyone there, and everyone everywhere - I have a right to be specific.  When I see other countrymen defend him implicitly, as if protecting Nigeria from any mention of its problems was somehow more important than solving aspects of them that are affecting us here - I welcome the opportunity for some straight talk.  Sorry, that's who I am.  You can be as neutral as you like.  I have a right to care about an aspect of my culture.

Blockchain and decentralisation are huge opportunities for the developing world - for people to seize economic opportunities despite the corruption and failure of many of their leaders.  But that will never come to pass if engrained patterns get repeated.  Blockchain isn't a panacea that will magically solve things - we have to rise to the occasion to make it work.  We have to be a functioning community.  For that, we have to be willing to tell each other when something destructive to the community is happening.  Passing malfeasance under silence is precisely how it grows roots and spreads.  Narrative, and other such platforms can and will be hustled into nothingness if we don't have efficient communication about what is going on.

 

Sol_Cycler posted:
Malkazoid posted:

And we must all use these platforms honorably so they go the distance, rather than raping it while we can...

It should never be Politically Incorrect to demand that.

^^^^ - yes

@Malkazoid you are dead wrong in your speculative view about the Nigeria Family. I am pained to read your flawed imagery and depiction of the Nigeria family as a likely accomplice or active assistants in crime. This  is the most spiteful depiction I have ever read about the Nigerian family in recent time.  

No family that I know in Nigeria, no matter how poor they are  will ever “teach their children” to commit crime in order to survive.  I repeat no family  that I know will do that even in the face of worst deprivation.  Yes, we have our share of criminals like any other country in the world but majority of people here are honest, decent, hardworking and law abiding.  

Now for the records,   crime is not a native of any region or country. Crime is crime no matter who commits it. Copyright infringement is wrong and anyone found committing such should be punished appropriately. There are rules in this platform, anyone one found violating the rules should be punished. I have problem with overgeneralization or typecasting. 

 

@bishop posted:

@Malkazoid you are dead wrong in your speculative view about the Nigeria Family. I am pained to read your flawed imagery and depiction of the Nigeria family as a likely accomplice or active assistants in crime. This  is the most spiteful depiction I have ever read about the Nigerian family in recent time.  

No family that I know in Nigeria, no matter how poor they are  will ever “teach their children” to commit crime in order to survive.  I repeat no family  that I know will do that even in the face of worst deprivation.  Yes, we have our share of criminals like any other country in the world but majority of people here are honest, decent, hardworking and law abiding.  

Now for the records,   crime is not a native of any region or country. Crime is crime no matter who commits it. Copyright infringement is wrong and anyone found committing such should be punished appropriately. There are rules in this platform, anyone one found violating the rules should be punished. I have problem with overgeneralization or typecasting. 

 

I’m sorry you read it that way, @@bishop but if you read it again you might realize that nowhere did I say most, or even many Nigerians would do this.  

The economic realities are what they are, and like you said yourself, there are criminals in every society.  

I spoke of Nigeria because I think the account we are discussing in this thread is from there, and because I can speak only of developing countries I am familiar with.  This thread only brought in the economic realities of some of those who are tempted to take short cuts like plagiarism so that we can better calibrate the platform to prevent it.  You do want us to prevent plagiarism, don’t you?

I further discussed Nigeria’s situation to explain why I was disturbed that one of my countrymen came here to this thread to take issue with Nigeria being mentioned, while ignoring the actual problem of plagiarism.  It feels like he, and perhaps you, care more about being offended than about keeping Narrative a healthy and desirable place for all users.  

There is ZERO spite.  I enjoy and appreciate the vast majority of Nigerian Narrators.  If you are respecting the rules, I appreciate you.  If someone breaks the rules, I will seek ways to prevent it from continuing, and that sometimes includes considering the economic realities of where the person comes from.  I trust the matter is now resolved and clarified.  

Would you like to contribute to the conversation of how we can reduce the problem of plagiarism?

Malkazoid posted:
@bishop posted:

@Malkazoid you are dead wrong in your speculative view about the Nigeria Family. I am pained to read your flawed imagery and depiction of the Nigeria family as a likely accomplice or active assistants in crime. This  is the most spiteful depiction I have ever read about the Nigerian family in recent time.  

No family that I know in Nigeria, no matter how poor they are  will ever “teach their children” to commit crime in order to survive.  I repeat no family  that I know will do that even in the face of worst deprivation.  Yes, we have our share of criminals like any other country in the world but majority of people here are honest, decent, hardworking and law abiding.  

Now for the records,   crime is not a native of any region or country. Crime is crime no matter who commits it. Copyright infringement is wrong and anyone found committing such should be punished appropriately. There are rules in this platform, anyone one found violating the rules should be punished. I have problem with overgeneralization or typecasting. 

 

I’m sorry you read it that way, @@bishop but if you read it again you might realize that nowhere did I say most, or even many Nigerians would do this.  

The economic realities are what they are, and like you said yourself, there are criminals in every society.  

I spoke of Nigeria because I think the account we are discussing in this thread is from there, and because I can speak only of developing countries I am familiar with.  This thread only brought in the economic realities of some of those who are tempted to take short cuts like plagiarism so that we can better calibrate the platform to prevent it.  You do want us to prevent plagiarism, don’t you?

I further discussed Nigeria’s situation to explain why I was disturbed that one of my countrymen came here to this thread to take issue with Nigeria being mentioned, while ignoring the actual problem of plagiarism.  It feels like he, and perhaps you, care more about being offended than about keeping Narrative a healthy and desirable place for all users.  

There is ZERO spite.  I enjoy and appreciate the vast majority of Nigerian Narrators.  If you are respecting the rules, I appreciate you.  If someone breaks the rules, I will seek ways to prevent it from continuing, and that sometimes includes considering the economic realities of where the person comes from.  I trust the matter is now resolved and clarified.  

Would you like to contribute to the conversation of how we can reduce the problem of plagiarism?

@Malkazoid my fellow countryman, nobody is angered because you mentioned Nigeria. My only worry is about your hypothetical imageries which I feel is at variance with realities on ground. We all agree on one point. Crime is crime no matter who commits it. Every crime should be punished.

The notion of “economic realities” should not blur the fact that crime exists in every society. I am afraid  that if this notion is overstretched,  we may end up criminalizing all economically disadvantaged communities whether they are found in Asia, Europe or the Americas. Crime or any form of deviant behaviour is neither about race, location nor about economics.

As a sociologist, I frankly think that it is very superficial to think that economic realities alone can fully explain individual misbehavior or criminogenic culture. How do you explain deviant and criminal behaviour in places with high standard of living like America and Europe? In these places one should have expected little or no crime.

Once more, we have had one or two major incidence of known AUP violation in this platform, the case of trolling and another case involving an individual with high reputation. You never hyped your thesis of economic realities of their region or gave any lecture of  how a Tech family in  Silicon Valley can write a program to troll the entire system. Or did you? Don’t you think that such possibility exists?

I hope you can now situate my apprehension and point of disagreement with your typology. Copyright issues are serious issues and any copyright infringement should be punished accordingly.  People will commit crimes as so long as they can pay the penalty we tag for their crimes. If the penalty is low crime will be high. If the penalty is high, crime will be low. That’s my take.

Please note that we are very aware of the issues at hand and are currently designing some improvements to deal with plagiarism and copyright issues (along with other AUP violations).   We will announce the changes when we are ready with the full design and roll-out. 

Until then, if you feel a post is plagiarizing, or of low quality, vote accordingly.  

Sol_Cycler posted:
@bishop posted:

@Malkazoid you are dead wrong in your speculative view about the Nigeria Family. I am pained to read your flawed imagery and depiction of the Nigeria family as a likely accomplice or active assistants in crime. This  is the most spiteful depiction I have ever read about the Nigerian family in recent time.  

No family that I know in Nigeria, no matter how poor they are  will ever “teach their children” to commit crime in order to survive.  I repeat no family  that I know will do that even in the face of worst deprivation.  Yes, we have our share of criminals like any other country in the world but majority of people here are honest, decent, hardworking and law abiding.  

Now for the records,   crime is not a native of any region or country. Crime is crime no matter who commits it. Copyright infringement is wrong and anyone found committing such should be punished appropriately. There are rules in this platform, anyone one found violating the rules should be punished. I have problem with overgeneralization or typecasting. 

 

If everyone only focuses on what offends them, rather than the issue, nothing will move forward.

If you aren't doing what's being focused on, then it isn't about you...So don't make it so.

If you could be an ambassador for your community, then that'll be great. That'll help, but whining about finger pointing won't.

A majority of issue's brought up in this forum by the community have been because of the actions by a large portion of user's from a specific region, which cannot be denied and that community is also abusing the downvote feature as revenge for being called out, instead of taking it at face value. That is as constructive criticism that they use to grow from, not take offense with... This region also rightly has a bad rep worldwide, which has been earned.

Not only has the problem been perpetrated largely by residents of a certain region, but those user's have admitted to creating voting circles, which is harmful to the platform.

Please help be the change, not the offended that only makes the issue worse.

We are all adults and hopefully we can act as such. If we cannot, then this experiment in Community Moderation will fail. 

@Sol_Cycler nobody is  whining or pointing fingers here  except you

"a large portion of user's from a specific region" 

"This region also rightly has a bad rep worldwide, which has been earned" 

What do you call this?

What do you call offence?  Can't we disagree with folks again? 

I come from  background where you are taught to interrogate issues. Should i jettison such rich tradition because i want to be liked by all ? I don't think so my friend.

Back to the conversation. If  we want to have good conversation, we must come to the table without bias or stereotype. We must respect people and   stop making provocative and sweeping statement

Typecasting  inhibit free flow of thoughts and ideas.  Narrative is our community. We must all join hands to build this place. 

Copyright infringement is a serious matter and should be treated as such. The rules are  clear  if you feel a post is plagiarizing, or of low quality, vote accordingly.

 

 

 

Sol_Cycler posted:
@bishop posted:
Sol_Cycler posted:
@bishop posted:

@Malkazoid you are dead wrong in your speculative view about the Nigeria Family. I am pained to read your flawed imagery and depiction of the Nigeria family as a likely accomplice or active assistants in crime. This  is the most spiteful depiction I have ever read about the Nigerian family in recent time.  

No family that I know in Nigeria, no matter how poor they are  will ever “teach their children” to commit crime in order to survive.  I repeat no family  that I know will do that even in the face of worst deprivation.  Yes, we have our share of criminals like any other country in the world but majority of people here are honest, decent, hardworking and law abiding.  

Now for the records,   crime is not a native of any region or country. Crime is crime no matter who commits it. Copyright infringement is wrong and anyone found committing such should be punished appropriately. There are rules in this platform, anyone one found violating the rules should be punished. I have problem with overgeneralization or typecasting. 

 

If everyone only focuses on what offends them, rather than the issue, nothing will move forward.

If you aren't doing what's being focused on, then it isn't about you...So don't make it so.

If you could be an ambassador for your community, then that'll be great. That'll help, but whining about finger pointing won't.

A majority of issue's brought up in this forum by the community have been because of the actions by a large portion of user's from a specific region, which cannot be denied and that community is also abusing the downvote feature as revenge for being called out, instead of taking it at face value. That is as constructive criticism that they use to grow from, not take offense with... This region also rightly has a bad rep worldwide, which has been earned.

Not only has the problem been perpetrated largely by residents of a certain region, but those user's have admitted to creating voting circles, which is harmful to the platform.

Please help be the change, not the offended that only makes the issue worse.

We are all adults and hopefully we can act as such. If we cannot, then this experiment in Community Moderation will fail. 

@Sol_Cycler nobody is  whining or pointing fingers here  except you

"a large portion of user's from a specific region" 

"This region also rightly has a bad rep worldwide, which has been earned" 

What do you call this?

What do you call offence?  Can't we disagree with folks again? 

I come from  background where you are taught to interrogate issues. Should i jettison such rich tradition because i want to be liked by all ? I don't think so my friend.

Back to the conversation. If  we want to have good conversation, we must come to the table without bias or stereotype. We must respect people and   stop making provocative and sweeping statement

Typecasting  inhibit free flow of thoughts and ideas.  Narrative is our community. We must all join hands to build this place. 

Copyright infringement is a serious matter and should be treated as such. The rules are  clear  if you feel a post is plagiarizing, or of low quality, vote accordingly.

 

 

 

How? You don't want us to be specific about the issue.

Your playing victim is hindering the convo...

@malkazoid only used one example of many for part of the issue brought forth from personal experience, not using it as a blanket label. You are overblowing the 'problem' to deflect.

If you're truly a "Sociologist" you know this...

If you want to help, then say something when you see something and make sure your vote reflects it and don't vote if it isn't deserving.

It's simple. 

@Sol_Cycler  my dear friend don't turn the table yet. I don't play the victim because nobody can victimize me. 

Enough said on this matter,  If we open our heart and set aside some of our stereotypes and decide to treat others with respect then we can have meaningful conversation. Until then if you find any post that violate AUP or of low quality please go ahead and downvote. I have been doing this too but  I don't run  to the street telling folk that i voted for the republicans or and downvoted the  Socialist perhaps that's where we differ.

Thanks anyway for making me a community leader. Be sure i will use my new position wisely in making narrative great.

 

 

I'm sorry to see that this thread has been diverted.  The issue originally raised (copyright infringement on Narrative) is very important.

In cases where the original artist can be identified, I recommend notifying the artist of the infringement.  My friends in the art world always appreciate it when someone notifies them that their work has been stolen.  

@Robert Nicholson, in an ideal world, that would happen. Unfortunately, someone has to spend their time doing that. I don't think it should be other platform users, though I've been tempted a few times to do so. Sometimes, you have to join another platform just to notify the artist to protect their work. This is an unfortunate situation, but notifying artists does take up time. As this situation gets worse, it will require eating up a lot of time.

@Malkazoid, I agree with @Robert Nicholson@Garden Gnome Publications, you and others that this is a problem.  With a limited amount of pie (rewards) to go around, it is in the best interest of all creators on the site to curate as much as possible since they are the ones ultimately affected by this at the end of the day since their slice of the pie will be reduced if they do not.  As some people have also pointed out, if people view stolen content as an option for making a quick buck on narrative, people will lose interest, people won't keep up their Niche payments, and Narrative will die.

Here is my proposal for the community / @Narrative team:

I think the most sensible thing to do is to go after the accounts in question, rather than playing wack-a-mole on the content.  I would propose a 3 strike policy.

If you create content that is found to have been downvoted specifically because of copyright issues and this is verified by the Tribunal or some other staff member as a Valid Claim, then your account first gets a WARNING, and the posted content in question cannot earn rewards.  If this happens again, the account gets a FIRST STRIKE, the content is demonetized and comes with a punishment of not being able to post for 1 week.  With a SECOND STRIKE, content is demonetized and comes with a punishment of not being able to post for 1 month.  With the FINAL STRIKE the account will not be able to post again for 1 year or perhaps ever again.  I would also say that if the final strike happens, all rewards in the account are RETURNED TO THE REWARDS POOL.

So here is an interesting twist.  What if you cannot redeem rewards if your account has a strike until some 'probationary period' expires.  So here is the scenario: I steal some content, post it, and I get caught...I get my warning and my post demonetized.  I do it again, and earn my first strike.  Now suddenly I'm unable to redeem the rewards in my account for x Months.  Now I better be a good little Narrator if I want those rewards...so I behave well....my probation is up....I can redeem my rewards, and I break the rules again, strike 2....now my redemption probation period is doubled or tripled.  This would slow down the assault of people gaming the system as it simply would not be profitable.

The downside is the overhead involved in verifying copyright claims....perhaps a new position, like the tribunal or moderator is created which specifically reviews these claims.  Someone could appeal a 'strike' with the tribunal.

I think this approach works as it prevents the offending users from earning rewards (which is why they are presumably doing this to begin with), and provides a nice deterrent going forward, while keeping the broader rule following community happy.

I like that approach @Banter. Since Narrative seems committed to not deleting accounts (and I can't say I disagree with it), there has to be another way to drive the point home. Denial of rewards for specific violations, of which content theft should be one, would certainly deflate those content thieves who insist on persisting in their endeavor. Why keep moving forward if it isn't going to benefit you? 

The three strike rule does send the message that you better shape up or you'll simply be wasting your own time. So, either they'll figure out how to produce quality posts without plagiarizing, or they'll leave the platform.

What will likely happen is they'll create more dummy accounts and keep doing what they're doing. But when those accounts are locked down, then they'll have to start over again. This cat-and-mouse game won't stop the practice, but it will slow it down and deny such thieves the satisfaction of most of their rewards. And that's a lot better than simply letting them steal from the rewards pool.

I love that @Banter. And it makes absolute sense to ban someone for stealing content, since Narrative already does that when someone fails to pay for a niche. The team promised changes, so for now I'm waiting to see what they are.

Problem is many people are becoming smart about the content they steal and make it harder to spot. 

I am seeing an alarming uptick in the number of articles totally cut and pasted into the post - most people apparently believe that showing it was posted elsewhere is the same as attribution... to me it is turning the platform into a paid version of Facebook...where one can simply paste in the news story or article with no original content at all. This coupled with some people's out and out refusal to downvote on clear copyright infringement is baffling and worrisome to me. I see no solutions, but adding my voice to the call for some focus here, may help a little. C'mon developers, tribunal, powers-that-be....this will hit critical mass soon. I have trouble wanting to promote the platform if it is going to devolve this way.

@Serroc fully agree on people confusing "I posted this elsewhere" with "someone else posted this". The team acknowledged they are working on some changes. These normally take time, so I'm waiting to see what comes up next. I'm certain it won't stop the issues, as it's hard to control it completely. But hoping it will improve things.

I am hopeful that the work being done will help to curb the problem... and also know that sometimes the numbers of voices can assist in making a problem a priority. :-)

Banter posted:

@Malkazoid, I agree with @Robert Nicholson@Garden Gnome Publications, you and others that this is a problem.  With a limited amount of pie (rewards) to go around, it is in the best interest of all creators on the site to curate as much as possible since they are the ones ultimately affected by this at the end of the day since their slice of the pie will be reduced if they do not.  As some people have also pointed out, if people view stolen content as an option for making a quick buck on narrative, people will lose interest, people won't keep up their Niche payments, and Narrative will die.

Here is my proposal for the community / @Narrative team:

I think the most sensible thing to do is to go after the accounts in question, rather than playing wack-a-mole on the content.  I would propose a 3 strike policy.

If you create content that is found to have been downvoted specifically because of copyright issues and this is verified by the Tribunal or some other staff member as a Valid Claim, then your account first gets a WARNING, and the posted content in question cannot earn rewards.  If this happens again, the account gets a FIRST STRIKE, the content is demonetized and comes with a punishment of not being able to post for 1 week.  With a SECOND STRIKE, content is demonetized and comes with a punishment of not being able to post for 1 month.  With the FINAL STRIKE the account will not be able to post again for 1 year or perhaps ever again.  I would also say that if the final strike happens, all rewards in the account are RETURNED TO THE REWARDS POOL.

So here is an interesting twist.  What if you cannot redeem rewards if your account has a strike until some 'probationary period' expires.  So here is the scenario: I steal some content, post it, and I get caught...I get my warning and my post demonetized.  I do it again, and earn my first strike.  Now suddenly I'm unable to redeem the rewards in my account for x Months.  Now I better be a good little Narrator if I want those rewards...so I behave well....my probation is up....I can redeem my rewards, and I break the rules again, strike 2....now my redemption probation period is doubled or tripled.  This would slow down the assault of people gaming the system as it simply would not be profitable.

The downside is the overhead involved in verifying copyright claims....perhaps a new position, like the tribunal or moderator is created which specifically reviews these claims.  Someone could appeal a 'strike' with the tribunal.

I think this approach works as it prevents the offending users from earning rewards (which is why they are presumably doing this to begin with), and provides a nice deterrent going forward, while keeping the broader rule following community happy.

i  totally support this approach. I think the team should  act on it.

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×