new downvote reason: "posted in an unsuitable niche"

Service: Narrative

Is it possible to add an option to downvote for the reason "posted in an unsuitable niche" (as per this post by @Christina Gleason)?

I think it's a legitimate reason to downvote but we shouldn't be forced to choose "low quality" because these posts are often of good quality... Just placed in the wrong place. Which, as Christina already suggested in her article, seems like an attempt to game the system by potentially providing rewards to certain niche owners. At the moment, if the niche owner does not see fit to remove such unfitting post and in some cases even encourage Narrators to keep posting by upvoting and commenting, the Community has limited tools to do something about it.

I, for one, don't feel OK downvoting for "low quality" but I really think such behaviour is a disservice to Narrative.

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Indeed, but what guarantees that future mods will be moderating properly? Some niche owners don't do it - they can be elected as moderators or the same people who are now posting to "wrong" niches on purpose can apply to be mods and get voted in... At the end, who is paying attention? About 15 folks who are active on this forum...

Gosia Rokicka posted:

Indeed, but what guarantees that future mods will be moderating properly? Some niche owners don't do it - they can be elected as moderators or the same people who are now posting to "wrong" niches on purpose can apply to be mods and get voted in... At the end, who is paying attention? About 15 folks who are active on this forum...

The community  votes mods in, and can vote them out if they aren't following the rules. My take on it is, that  when mod elections come, any owner who wants to moderate their own niche, has to be voted in, with the same rules applying. The current situation with owners "winging it" is just until we're ready for moderator elections, which I hope is really soon.

Yeah, but can't you see the "winging it" people can still be voted in? If they have decent reps and they won't have much competition in the elections they probably will be... Because not many people are paying attention to this slightly unsavoury behaviour...

Gosia Rokicka posted:

Yeah, but can't you see the "winging it" people can still be voted in? If they have decent reps and they won't have much competition in the elections they probably will be... Because not many people are paying attention to this slightly unsavoury behaviour...

One moderators are elected, then a new Tribunal will also be elected that includes members of the community. While it's up to the community to take action when rules are broken, it only takes one member, if a moderator/ or owner/moderator, won't co-operate,  to post a complaint to the Tribunal, who is obligated to take appropriate action. 

I read in the spec, too, that once the new Tribunal is elected, a committee made up half community members and half HQ team members will also be elected to help keep things moving according to Hoyle.

But, yeah, at the moment, it's a bit 'wild, west' around here - I don't think it's going to stay that way, tho.

 

@Colleen Ryer, I fear the "unsuitable niche" issue is going to stay for long, also when moderators will be elected.

I posted in a niche (because it was relevant) where the owner logged in 5 months ago, and maybe the niche won't even have moderators. It's certainly an unmoderated niche and it's going to stay as it is. From what I see it's not the only niche. Not only; I fear that most members just don't care about moderation in niches, so, moderator elections can just be a political thing.

In my opinion, we need a downvote option in any case.

Vico Biscotti posted:

@Colleen Ryer, I fear the "unsuitable niche" issue is going to stay for long, also when moderators will be elected.

I posted in a niche (because it was relevant) where the owner logged in 5 months ago, and maybe the niche won't even have moderators. It's certainly an unmoderated niche and it's going to stay as it is. From what I see it's not the only niche. Not only; I fear that most members just don't care about moderation in niches, so, moderator elections can just be a political thing.

In my opinion, we need a downvote option in any case.

I agree an extra downvote option might be useful into the future, even if just because of "absentee niche owners" who haven't selected any moderators. I avoid absentee niches, but not everyone will -  by the same token, tho, if members don't care about how suitable an absentee niche is for the content, they won't use the downvote function, either. 

Also since moderating is paid, members might eventually take a dim view of sloppy moderation - why waste community funds that could be going to niches that are adding value?

I think part of promoting a niche is putting in the effort to make it well-moderated - having appropriate content attracts more readers than off-topic, or crummy stuff. Once all the tools are in place, I think the savvy owners are going to make the highest and best possible use of them - and they won't put up with moderators who undermine their efforts to make their niches successful.

My 2 cents anyway

 

 

I think "inappropriate niche tag" should be a reason to downvote. Then, the owner and moderators of the niche should be notified of that downvote for that reason. If they remove the post from their niche, then the downvoters should each get a notification to be allowed to change their votes.

Garden Gnome Publications posted:

I think "inappropriate niche tag" should be a reason to downvote. Then, the owner and moderators of the niche should be notified of that downvote for that reason. If they remove the post from their niche, then the downvoters should each get a notification to be allowed to change their votes.

Maybe the "inappropriate niche tag" vote could lead to an automatic notification to owners and moderators, rather thn who ever is downvoting having to do it? 

Continue on, but I think there needs to be a reminder to the discussion that there is only ever one version of the content, one set of votes, one set of comments.

There is not a different version of the content for each niche, a different set of comments per niche, a different set of votes per niche.

Whether the content is viewed in the Dog niche, the Cat niche, or the Ming Dynasty Vase niche it is the same content, thus a vote for "Wrong Niche" would be somewhat odd in certain circumstances.

If the content is perfectly good but you think that it is misclassified in one Niche selection and vote it as inappropriate but I am viewing it from the perspective of a Niche that it matches quite well your Inappropriate vote will make no sense to me at all.

You'll need to work out how that's going to work as you continue on this path.

For myself, I think that when proper moderation is in place the entire issue will be greatly minimized.  There will always be discussion and disagreements as to which Niches a content piece belongs, Always.  But I think that they will be far more manageable and less of a concern.

Vico Biscotti posted:

@David Dreezer, I now see you're right on this. Downvoting would require the specification of the niche, which is overcomplicating.

Still, I'm not optimistic about future moderation, but that's another story.

I can help with that some, too.

Moderators are voted in by the community.  Moderators can be removed by the community if they are not doing the job.

https://spec.narrative.org/doc...erators-from-a-niche

That is a very good point, @David Dreezer, haven't thought about that. You're right. Hopefully, you're also right that moderation and a more mature community will smooth the issues. Maybe. Or maybe not. The wisdom of the crowd gave us Brexit and Donald Trump and it happened in apparently conscious and mature democracies. 

Luckily, when things go south, at least it's easier to leave an online space than a country

David Dreezer posted:
Vico Biscotti posted:

@David Dreezer, I now see you're right on this. Downvoting would require the specification of the niche, which is overcomplicating.

Still, I'm not optimistic about future moderation, but that's another story.

I can help with that some, too.

Moderators are voted in by the community.  Moderators can be removed by the community if they are not doing the job.

https://spec.narrative.org/doc...erators-from-a-niche

I know. Still I'm worried. Not many people seem to care about moderation, even if I fear this can damage the platform, so maybe elections are going to be more a political thing than something in the merit. Maybe I'm worried without reason. I hope so. Let's see.

Question, even if it's maybe too early for this: I see a niche follower can initiate a petition to remove a moderator, but what if a niche isn't moderated and I don't know which moderator is responsible for that?

Thanks for weighing in @David Dreezer. This is a reminder that democracy is a long and inefficient process. If everything is left to the community, we'll have to resign ourselves to knowing that certain processes will take a while to work themselves out. For instance, how long should we give moderators before we realize they aren't moderating effectively? One month? six months? There is a process built into the platform, so we have to remember that Narrative hasn't rolled it all out yet. 

That said, I'd like to think that the moderator system will work as it should. But, I know people, so I doubt that it will. It probably will in some Niches and not in others. As a Niche owner, I'll be on my moderators to ensure they are moderating the Niche properly, and if not, I'll lead the charge to replace them. Not all Niche owners are going to be as involved. And from what I've seen in a few Niches--BLOG Niche and Writing, for example--content creators don't care that much either. So this will likely be a case of the 80/20 rule. That means the burden to clean up Niches will be left to a few who really care.

Garden Gnome Publications posted:

I think "inappropriate niche tag" should be a reason to downvote. Then, the owner and moderators of the niche should be notified of that downvote for that reason. If they remove the post from their niche, then the downvoters should each get a notification to be allowed to change their votes.

I like every point in this conversation, but I like this solution the most!

Christina Gleason posted:
Garden Gnome Publications posted:

I think "inappropriate niche tag" should be a reason to downvote. Then, the owner and moderators of the niche should be notified of that downvote for that reason. If they remove the post from their niche, then the downvoters should each get a notification to be allowed to change their votes.

I like every point in this conversation, but I like this solution the most!

If it could be done without interfering with other tags that are appropriate, I do too, but it sounds difficult, unfortunately.

@Colleen Ryer, I don't think it would be too difficult, but I'm not a coder. Each post is tagged to up to three niches. If each niche owner, and, after moderators have been elected, the moderators, of a tagged niche received a notification that a post was downvoted for the purpose of being in the wrong niche, and with the further proviso to "check the content to see if it matches your niche and remove, if appropriate," that puts the onus on the moderators. They don't have to remove the content. They're just being notified and asked to check the content against the description of their niche. After that, it's up to the community to decide what to do with the moderators.

Garden Gnome Publications posted:

@Colleen Ryer, I don't think it would be too difficult, but I'm not a coder. Each post is tagged to up to three niches. If each niche owner, and, after moderators have been elected, the moderators, of a tagged niche received a notification that a post was downvoted for the purpose of being in the wrong niche, and with the further proviso to "check the content to see if it matches your niche and remove, if appropriate," that puts the onus on the moderators. They don't have to remove the content. They're just being notified and asked to check the content against the description of their niche. After that, it's up to the community to decide what to do with the moderators.

Or there could even be check boxes for the person choosing that downvote reason to select the irrelevant niches, so only those owners/mods would get the message.

I would like to add one important thing here. If any one is selecting 3 Niches for a single post and if each Niche has minimum 2 Moderators than total 6 moderators will review that post and they all will have their own different opinions which might not beneficial with 100% in the favor of that Author nor the other 2 Niche Owners. In the end rarely such post will get rewarded with 100% upvotes as there will be always such conflicts lying on all posts. How we are planning to deal with that?

I'm not fully sure that I understand what scenario that you are describing, but to be clear - Moderators determine whether or not a piece of content belongs in a Niche or not.  They do not evaluate content submitted to a Niche in terms of quality.  That is not the moderator's job.

https://spec.narrative.org/doc...ion-niche-moderation

Niche moderators may:

  • Review content that is in the content review queue (if enabled for the niche by the Lead Moderator) or that is already published to the niche. Content may be accepted or rejected. The purpose of the review is to determine whether the content is a fit for the subject matter of the niche. (Quality of the post should not be a factor, since community ratings determine that.) If content is rejected, an email will be sent to the content creator.

I'm talking about moderators' upvotes and down votes on content. 

Ad you said, moderators can't evaluate the quality of the content, does it means they can't opt for voting on that content? 

If they can, then their votes might get biased based on their choice of Niches they represent. 

And? This is where I cannot find the point that you are making? Yes, Moderators can vote on content. Just as you or I can. And anyone else not Conduct Negative.

Please, what is your objection?

Are you perhaps confusing CONTENT voting with the Moderators amplified weighting on COMMENTS?

Blogger Krunal posted:

I'm talking about moderators' upvotes and down votes on content. 

Ad you said, moderators can't evaluate the quality of the content, does it means they can't opt for voting on that content? 

If they can, then their votes might get biased based on their choice of Niches they represent. 

I think moderators votes on content have the same weight as everyone else. So wouldn't be any more biased in evaluating content.

I'm pretty sure moderator's votes on comments have more weight - and this is so they can quickly bury nasty comments, because they aren't allowed to delete stuff. 

And if moderators abuse this extra voting weight, they can be voted out, so it's not in their best interest to downvote according to their own preferences.

 

Colleen Ryer posted:
Blogger Krunal posted:

I'm talking about moderators' upvotes and down votes on content. 

Ad you said, moderators can't evaluate the quality of the content, does it means they can't opt for voting on that content? 

If they can, then their votes might get biased based on their choice of Niches they represent. 

I think moderators votes on content have the same weight as everyone else. So wouldn't be any more biased in evaluating content.

I'm pretty sure moderator's votes on comments have more weight - and this is so they can quickly bury nasty comments, because they aren't allowed to delete stuff. 

And if moderators abuse this extra voting weight, they can be voted out, so it's not in their best interest to downvote according to their own preferences.

 

Yes, that's what I am talking about. Moderators' content voting should weight as equal like others. Their influence on comment bury is fine. 

Blogger Krunal posted:
Colleen Ryer posted:
Blogger Krunal posted:

I'm talking about moderators' upvotes and down votes on content. 

Ad you said, moderators can't evaluate the quality of the content, does it means they can't opt for voting on that content? 

If they can, then their votes might get biased based on their choice of Niches they represent. 

I think moderators votes on content have the same weight as everyone else. So wouldn't be any more biased in evaluating content.

I'm pretty sure moderator's votes on comments have more weight - and this is so they can quickly bury nasty comments, because they aren't allowed to delete stuff. 

And if moderators abuse this extra voting weight, they can be voted out, so it's not in their best interest to downvote according to their own preferences.

 

Yes, that's what I am talking about. Moderators' content voting should weight as equal like others. Their influence on comment bury is fine. 

Everyone's votes on content are the same- based on reputation.

Only votes on comments are different -moderators vote on comments has more weight.

And I'm pretty sure that for comments on your own content - your vote has more weight, too. 

If I haven't got this straight, please someone correct me

Bumping this back up because we have a reason for AUP violations field now. 

Wouldn't it be possible to add a checkbox to a "wrong niche" reason so that we could checkmark which niche(s) are being misused so that the moderators of said niche could be apprised of the situation? Then we could be notified when a moderator takes action - removed or left alone - and there could be an option to appeal moderators (since this is something you've stated will be possible in the future) who abuse their roles to allow irrelevant content because they earn their 6% of it if it stays put.

Christina Gleason posted:

Bumping this back up because we have a reason for AUP violations field now. 

Wouldn't it be possible to add a checkbox to a "wrong niche" reason so that we could checkmark which niche(s) are being misused so that the moderators of said niche could be apprised of the situation? Then we could be notified when a moderator takes action - removed or left alone - and there could be an option to appeal moderators (since this is something you've stated will be possible in the future) who abuse their roles to allow irrelevant content because they earn their 6% of it if it stays put.

Rereading through this thread, I completely agree with you.  It shouldn't be difficult to provide a radio button list of the niches the post is tagged to, in a downvote flow for inappropriate niche tagging.

In terms of making this efficient, I would support that if enough downvotes of this kind (weighted by reputation) come through, then the post should be removed from the niche.  It would then be up to the niche owner to appeal if they feel a post that belonged was removed (and frivolous appeals would have a rep and NRVE cost).

To be fair, frivolous downvotes (as determined by an appeal by the owner that results in the content being returned to the niche) would need to have a consequence for the voters. 

Likewise, there should be an increasing rep cost to Narrators who repeatedly post their content to niches it does not belong in.

What I'm seeing is very frequent inappropriate tagging to certain niches as part of a voting circle dynamic.  The only way to stop this is by introducing efficient counter measures and penalties.

As a reminder, when Moderator elections occur - the moderator will be responsible for ensuring that the post is appropriate to the Niche. If they are not doing their job, they can be appealed. We have some plans to address this issue in a couple different ways. This includes when the owner is also the moderator.  We do see the flaw in it right now with owners not moderating (de facto) correctly for some (not all) Niches. 

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