Sheesh... I take two steps away from a conversation and have to spend an hour catching up... thankfully, the conversation hasn't changed much. I would like to throw in my towel (I've already tossed my two cents) and say that I believe both sides have stated their case. 

And, it is my hope that Reason prevails. Both sides believe Reason to be on their side, and they're probably both right. If I might call upon my own analogy, that of the Aspiring Parents... I might suggest that when a couple is having a difficult time getting pregnant, sometimes taking a break, changing the scenery, "letting go", are just the catalyst the body(ies) need in order to function properly. 

As the platform evolves during this formative year, it might be that Narrative decides that "ownership" is the wrong/right term and abstain-from/proceed-with changing the Niche structure to accommodate the most reasonable, rational point of view. But, if it continues to escalate, walls get higher, convictions are held tighter, and animosity (coupled with reluctance to change) multiplies. 

In the end, whatever the rules are that govern the platform, it is still a tool. And people will use (and exploit) any and all tools any which way they can. 

Bryan posted:

Sheesh... I take two steps away from a conversation and have to spend an hour catching up... thankfully, the conversation hasn't changed much. I would like to throw in my towel (I've already tossed my two cents) and say that I believe both sides have stated their case. 

And, it is my hope that Reason prevails. Both sides believe Reason to be on their side, and they're probably both right. If I might call upon my own analogy, that of the Aspiring Parents... I might suggest that when a couple is having a difficult time getting pregnant, sometimes taking a break, changing the scenery, "letting go", are just the catalyst the body(ies) need in order to function properly. 

As the platform evolves during this formative year, it might be that Narrative decides that "ownership" is the wrong/right term and abstain-from/proceed-with changing the Niche structure to accommodate the most reasonable, rational point of view. But, if it continues to escalate, walls get higher, convictions are held tighter, and animosity (coupled with reluctance to change) multiplies. 

In the end, whatever the rules are that govern the platform, it is still a tool. And people will use (and exploit) any and all tools any which way they can. 

Hehe - well I love the spirit of your message, but unfortunately both sides have not stated their case when it comes to real ownership of niches.

That topic has been mostly ignored, without giving even a glance at the pros and cons I've laid out.  It is frustrating and leads me to believe that silence is being maintained for one of three reasons:

- the answer is something we wouldn't like

- the topic is actually being discussed internally, and is pending a decision (in which case it would be respectful to let us know this)

- or nobody has actually taken stock of the arguments made, in which case this has all been a phenomenal waste of our time

But yeah - not much we can do about it except draw our conclusions.

Soňa posted:

@Malkazoid Thanks for your reply yesterday !

I agree, the niche ownership, and mostly the ability to sell the niche makes sense... now that I contemplated this topic more, the model presented in white paper seems to me not so well thought out. I really hope that Narrative team will address those issues and questions eventually. 

Anyway, I am really looking forward to see your storytelling skills officially in action, hopefully six months from now

Thanks @Soňa@Emily Barnett...

I only know the one story, so that's all the content I'll be contributing.  Maybe I can recycle the characters and have them eating Oreos, and picking each other's noses instead of their own.  That's as far as my imagination stretches.

alkazoid posted:
Bryan posted:

Sheesh... I take two steps away from a conversation and have to spend an hour catching up... thankfully, the conversation hasn't changed much. I would like to throw in my towel (I've already tossed my two cents) and say that I believe both sides have stated their case. 

And, it is my hope that Reason prevails. Both sides believe Reason to be on their side, and they're probably both right. If I might call upon my own analogy, that of the Aspiring Parents... I might suggest that when a couple is having a difficult time getting pregnant, sometimes taking a break, changing the scenery, "letting go", are just the catalyst the body(ies) need in order to function properly. 

As the platform evolves during this formative year, it might be that Narrative decides that "ownership" is the wrong/right term and abstain-from/proceed-with changing the Niche structure to accommodate the most reasonable, rational point of view. But, if it continues to escalate, walls get higher, convictions are held tighter, and animosity (coupled with reluctance to change) multiplies. 

In the end, whatever the rules are that govern the platform, it is still a tool. And people will use (and exploit) any and all tools any which way they can. 

Hehe - well I love the spirit of your message, but unfortunately both sides have not stated their case when it comes to real ownership of niches.

That topic has been mostly ignored, without giving even a glance at the pros and cons I've laid out.  It is frustrating and leads me to believe that silence is being maintained for one of three reasons:

- the answer is something we wouldn't like

- the topic is actually being discussed internally, and is pending a decision (in which case it would be respectful to let us know this)

- or nobody has actually taken stock of the arguments made, in which case this has all been a phenomenal waste of our time

But yeah - not much we can do about it except draw our conclusions.

Let's stay positive. There could still be a fourth reason:

- Someone from the team is as of now kindly compiling an informative message overflowing with explanations long expected and consequently received with a single tear of happiness...

Although I agree with Bryan that every system (and tools) would naturally get misused in some way over time, I still hope that Narrative system will address those issues more openly and that the platform will be in its final version built in a way to be more or less prone to such inefficiencies.

 

Malkazoid posted:
I only know the one story, so that's all the content I'll be contributing.  Maybe I can recycle the characters and have them eating Oreos, and picking each other's noses instead of their own.  That's as far as my imagination stretches.

Now THIS is something I think I can actually help with!

I might suggest converting the following elements of your story into variables that can then be swapped out to provide an endless supply of story combinations:

  • reverse character genders,
  • embellish with elaborate clothing descriptions,
  • swap out the type of snack (don't forget to include breakfast, lunch, dinner options as well),
  • explore a variety of pickable body orifices,
  • swap synonyms for the verb "pick" (dig, churn, scrape, itch, raze),
  • change the type of furniture being lazed in/on,
  • change location of furniture (room of house/apt/condo/hospital/treatment center...),
  • add colorful dialog with variations for dialect between the two characters, 

 

Those are just from the starter set. Coming to Kickstarter soon!

These are good discussions.  Don't think because I'm not replying each time, I'm not reading and the team is not paying attention.  We talk about these matters and consider where things pinch and where they are misunderstood and where a tweak is warranted.  We don't write up policy changes in a forum discussion and there are 4 "Founder" members of the team along with other advisors.  A lack of a speedy "we'll do this, now"  doesn't mean we're ignoring you, it means we're thinking  -- at length.

You are right that "ownership"  is at the heart of the matter and I hear what you're saying.  A few comments to soften what you perceive as unbending.  Ownership is not a binary, all or nothing kind of thing in many areas, including Narrative.  My entirely ill-fated franchise analogy was simply to say that "owners" frequently work in situations where their property rights are constrained.  A McDonald's owner can lose his sign and brand rights for poor performance. A sports franchise must get league approval to sell the team.  My 'planned neighborhood' house can only be painted one of 6 colors and God help the "owner" who wants hang clothes out back.   All that being said, a McDonald's, a team or a house is "owned" and can be sold, just not simply at the owner's say-so.

Narrative is not a franchise -- but ownership behaves in some ways like one.

@Malkazoid -- I entirely hear your points.  Don't think I am dismissing them by what I say next.

A core value in Narrative is community governance of things like moderators and what sort of advertising appears with what requirements in our Niches. The "owner"  is constrained by these values in his/her niche and so ownership is never absolute.  So the question is how "ownership" should be transferred to preserve the governance model and the structure of the larger economy.  On reflection, I think letting a niche lapse and then putting it up for auction has little to recommend it! 

I'll be the first to say that what happens in the life cycle of niches is not  spelled out.  I'll also say that the model will evolve  (look at bidding in the auctions -- it has raised all sorts of questions)  Doubtless Niche ownership will do the same.  Actually, already HAS raised questions in this topic.

Soňa posted:
alkazoid posted:
Bryan posted:

Sheesh... I take two steps away from a conversation and have to spend an hour catching up... thankfully, the conversation hasn't changed much. I would like to throw in my towel (I've already tossed my two cents) and say that I believe both sides have stated their case. 

And, it is my hope that Reason prevails. Both sides believe Reason to be on their side, and they're probably both right. If I might call upon my own analogy, that of the Aspiring Parents... I might suggest that when a couple is having a difficult time getting pregnant, sometimes taking a break, changing the scenery, "letting go", are just the catalyst the body(ies) need in order to function properly. 

As the platform evolves during this formative year, it might be that Narrative decides that "ownership" is the wrong/right term and abstain-from/proceed-with changing the Niche structure to accommodate the most reasonable, rational point of view. But, if it continues to escalate, walls get higher, convictions are held tighter, and animosity (coupled with reluctance to change) multiplies. 

In the end, whatever the rules are that govern the platform, it is still a tool. And people will use (and exploit) any and all tools any which way they can. 

Hehe - well I love the spirit of your message, but unfortunately both sides have not stated their case when it comes to real ownership of niches.

That topic has been mostly ignored, without giving even a glance at the pros and cons I've laid out.  It is frustrating and leads me to believe that silence is being maintained for one of three reasons:

- the answer is something we wouldn't like

- the topic is actually being discussed internally, and is pending a decision (in which case it would be respectful to let us know this)

- or nobody has actually taken stock of the arguments made, in which case this has all been a phenomenal waste of our time

But yeah - not much we can do about it except draw our conclusions.

Let's stay positive. There could still be a fourth reason:

- Someone from the team is as of now kindly compiling an informative message overflowing with explanations long expected and consequently received with a single tear of happiness...

Although I agree with Bryan that every system (and tools) would naturally get misused in some way over time, I still hope that Narrative system will address those issues more openly and that the platform will be in its final version built in a way to be more or less prone to such inefficiencies.

 

Yes - that 4th possibility is the best of all!

Bring on the tears of joy.  I really hope we make the right call on this - I believe it will be central to the platform's success, which is what we all want.  It is less about the niche revenue for me, and more about the energy I'm putting into Narrative.  I want to be sure I'm putting this passion and brain cycles into the platform that makes the right calls that allows it to grow as much as we all want it to.

Process for Niche Reselling

First of all, thank you to everyone who has invested time and effort into discussing the ins and outs of how Niches might be transferred from one person to another (i.e., the “ownership” question). This is exactly the type of intelligent and nuanced content we hope to see on Narrative itself once it launches. We have been paying very close attention to the conversation.

In the white paper, we actually never spelled out the exact process for what happens if someone wants to no longer be the owner of a Niche.

This is the way the Niche reselling process is going to work:

  1. Niche owner decides he/she doesn’t want to own the Niche any longer, for any reason.
  2. Niche owner submits their Niche to public auction for the community, and has the ability to set a minimum starting bid.
  3. The auction timer starts immediately when the Niche hits the auction block. It stays available for 30 days.
  4. Once the Niche is successfully auctioned, the original Niche owner receives 95% of the auction price, and the Narrative Rewards Pool receives 5%. If no-one purchases the Niche during the auction period, it remains with the original owner.

Niches cannot be put up for auction within 45 days of the renewal date (to avoid collision with the renewal fee process).

When a Niche has been auctioned, the renewal date remains the same; therefore, the new Niche owner will be responsible for the renewal fee on the same schedule.

Note that the entire history of the Niche will always be visible, including earnings, activity, etc., so the prospective bidders will have all of the information they need to make an informed bidding decision.

Hopefully this clarifies our desire to incentivize and reward successful Niche owners.

There are many details similar to this where we are “putting meat on the bones” of how the platform will function, so stay tuned, and please keep the passionate input coming!

Bryan posted:

Somewhere... I believe, a @Malkazoid is weeping tears of joy.

Hahahaha...well he worked very hard and was very articulate. I too am very happy with this news. It feels truely wonderful to present compelling arguments and have it be respected. 

Thank you @Rosemary @Ted @Michael Farris and the rest of the core team (I call you 5 the core, because I think all whom invest feel a part of the team now).

Now lets make this thing shine!! 

I still have a question about ownership. I can imagine that owners are only interested in a niche because of the popularity of the name without the will to put effort in it at all. Only to sell it later with profit. This could be bad for the community willing to put effort in the niche. Will it be possible to force a owner to leave his ownership by votes of the community and make it available first to for example the elected moderators which are respected and voted by the community already?

I understand that an owner should have the time to prove him or herself first so this is probably that needs time to be figured out.

Mean focus should be to better the quality of any niche and prevent misuse at the cost of the community.

The right path will form I have no doubt reading all of the above! Great work at such an early stage 😀

Michael Farris posted:

These are good discussions.  Don't think because I'm not replying each time, I'm not reading and the team is not paying attention.  We talk about these matters and consider where things pinch and where they are misunderstood and where a tweak is warranted.  We don't write up policy changes in a forum discussion and there are 4 "Founder" members of the team along with other advisors.  A lack of a speedy "we'll do this, now"  doesn't mean we're ignoring you, it means we're thinking  -- at length.

You are right that "ownership"  is at the heart of the matter and I hear what you're saying.  A few comments to soften what you perceive as unbending.  Ownership is not a binary, all or nothing kind of thing in many areas, including Narrative.  My entirely ill-fated franchise analogy was simply to say that "owners" frequently work in situations where their property rights are constrained.  A McDonald's owner can lose his sign and brand rights for poor performance. A sports franchise must get league approval to sell the team.  My 'planned neighborhood' house can only be painted one of 6 colors and God help the "owner" who wants hang clothes out back.   All that being said, a McDonald's, a team or a house is "owned" and can be sold, just not simply at the owner's say-so.

Narrative is not a franchise -- but ownership behaves in some ways like one.

@Malkazoid -- I entirely hear your points.  Don't think I am dismissing them by what I say next.

A core value in Narrative is community governance of things like moderators and what sort of advertising appears with what requirements in our Niches. The "owner"  is constrained by these values in his/her niche and so ownership is never absolute.  So the question is how "ownership" should be transferred to preserve the governance model and the structure of the larger economy.  On reflection, I think letting a niche lapse and then putting it up for auction has little to recommend it! 

I'll be the first to say that what happens in the life cycle of niches is not  spelled out.  I'll also say that the model will evolve  (look at bidding in the auctions -- it has raised all sorts of questions)  Doubtless Niche ownership will do the same.  Actually, already HAS raised questions in this topic.

Thanks Michael.  I really appreciate what I sense of how your mind works.

Community governance is fantastic.  Ownership in every instance in the analog world is also constrained in one way or another, by laws and by-laws (see what I did there?).  

I'm not sure I can fully express how relieved I am to see that the aspect of ownership I was concerned about - the ability to sell and realise capital gains - is something that will be a part of Narrative.

On a personal note, I am only buying niches that embody interests I know will be with me for life, and do not plan to sell them except perhaps in late retirement.  But I am convinced the network will benefit greatly from other people being able to work hard at their niches, and sell them if the need arises.

I'm coming out the other side of this tunnel of doubt over ownership with more enthusiasm for Narrative than before I entered.  There are few things I hold in higher esteem than people (and teams) who have an ear for dissenting points of view, and who see them as an opportunity rather than an obstacle.  Your team is clearly capable of this - and that's one of many reasons to expect great things will come to this network.

Thank you again.

Jeroenski74 posted:

I still have a question about ownership. I can imagine that owners are only interested in a niche because of the popularity of the name without the will to put effort in it at all. Only to sell it later with profit. This could be bad for the community willing to put effort in the niche. Will it be possible to force a owner to leave his ownership by votes of the community and make it available first to for example the elected moderators which are respected and voted by the community already?

I understand that an owner should have the time to prove him or herself first so this is probably that needs time to be figured out.

Mean focus should be to better the quality of any niche and prevent misuse at the cost of the community.

The right path will form I have no doubt reading all of the above! Great work at such an early stage 😀

It will be interesting to see whether significant problems arise around niche squatting.  If they don't, then there is nothing to fix.  But good to have some measures up our sleeves that are ready to roll out if need be?

There is already a threshold of activity slated for inclusion in the model, below which network rewards do not occur, if I remember correctly?  This threshold could also be used to determine whether a member can sell their niche or not?  Perhaps the minimum activity has to be exceeded for at least 6 out of the previous 12 months?  Or 9 out of the previous 12?  Or 3 out of the previous 6?  Or 3 out of the previous 3?

Or the algorithm could be more advanced, defining the required past activity levels dynamically based on the complete history of activity since the niche was acquired?  If your activity levels have been, on average, 3 times the minimum activity level, perhaps there would be no minimum requirement of activity at all, for instance?  And the minimum requirement could increase in severity, the lower the average activity has been?  It would be quite funny for a niche squatter to realise that one year of doing nothing with a niche would mean he has to achieve 5 times the minimum activity level for 12 consecutive months before he has the right to sell the niche?  Just examples to convey the drift of what could be implemented.

Perhaps more appropriate than forbidding a sale, a high score on the niche squatting algorithm could increase the commission paid to the network on a sale. 

These are my initial thoughts.

Bryan posted:
Malkazoid posted:
I only know the one story, so that's all the content I'll be contributing.  Maybe I can recycle the characters and have them eating Oreos, and picking each other's noses instead of their own.  That's as far as my imagination stretches.

Now THIS is something I think I can actually help with!

I might suggest converting the following elements of your story into variables that can then be swapped out to provide an endless supply of story combinations:

  • reverse character genders,
  • embellish with elaborate clothing descriptions,
  • swap out the type of snack (don't forget to include breakfast, lunch, dinner options as well),
  • explore a variety of pickable body orifices,
  • swap synonyms for the verb "pick" (dig, churn, scrape, itch, raze),
  • change the type of furniture being lazed in/on,
  • change location of furniture (room of house/apt/condo/hospital/treatment center...),
  • add colorful dialog with variations for dialect between the two characters, 

 

Those are just from the starter set. Coming to Kickstarter soon!

There was some sort of 19th century gadget that jumbled things this way - the name of it is on the tip of my tongue!

I just was informed by this wonderful news by @Malkazoid. I have been increasingly disappointed by the way things have been planned and the stubbornness of the team, to the point of absolutely regretting participating in this ICO at all. Now I am more confident that it was not such a bad call. Thanks a lot @Rosemary for this change. I hope that other things can be improved along the way (like the void between Chaucer and the Beta.) Then I will be fully a Narrative believer and full-on supporter.

A friendly reminder to the @Narrative Network Team that the Terms of Service need updating to reflect how niches can be sold by their owners.

The TOS as linked to on Chaucer Alpha, still currently says:

III. OWNERSHIP AND/OR CONTROL

The Company owns the software and all intellectual property used to deliver the Service, including all Service logos and copyrights. Users are permitted to use the Service for as long as the User’s account is active and in good standing. 

The User controls all personal data and can delete or edit it at any time. Niche suggestions and Niche names become “owned” by the Network as a whole, and Network members can approve or reject any particular Niche. If you purchase a niche, you are only purchasing the right to control it for a specific period of time, in terms of electing moderators for the niche and becoming eligible for Network Rewards* through your “ownership”. You may not sell your rights to anyone else via Narrative Network or any other process or service. To maintain your ownership rights you must continue to pay annual fees, as well.

Malkazoid posted:

A friendly reminder to the @Narrative Network Team that the Terms of Service need updating to reflect how niches can be sold by their owners.

The TOS as linked to on Chaucer Alpha, still currently says:

III. OWNERSHIP AND/OR CONTROL

The Company owns the software and all intellectual property used to deliver the Service, including all Service logos and copyrights. Users are permitted to use the Service for as long as the User’s account is active and in good standing. 

The User controls all personal data and can delete or edit it at any time. Niche suggestions and Niche names become “owned” by the Network as a whole, and Network members can approve or reject any particular Niche. If you purchase a niche, you are only purchasing the right to control it for a specific period of time, in terms of electing moderators for the niche and becoming eligible for Network Rewards* through your “ownership”. You may not sell your rights to anyone else via Narrative Network or any other process or service. To maintain your ownership rights you must continue to pay annual fees, as well.

Check again.

Thanks for the reminder.  Of course, that feature is not yet available.

Ted posted:
Malkazoid posted:

A friendly reminder to the @Narrative Network Team that the Terms of Service need updating to reflect how niches can be sold by their owners.

The TOS as linked to on Chaucer Alpha, still currently says:

III. OWNERSHIP AND/OR CONTROL

The Company owns the software and all intellectual property used to deliver the Service, including all Service logos and copyrights. Users are permitted to use the Service for as long as the User’s account is active and in good standing. 

The User controls all personal data and can delete or edit it at any time. Niche suggestions and Niche names become “owned” by the Network as a whole, and Network members can approve or reject any particular Niche. If you purchase a niche, you are only purchasing the right to control it for a specific period of time, in terms of electing moderators for the niche and becoming eligible for Network Rewards* through your “ownership”. You may not sell your rights to anyone else via Narrative Network or any other process or service. To maintain your ownership rights you must continue to pay annual fees, as well.

Check again.

Thanks for the reminder.  Of course, that feature is not yet available.

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