A important part of your experience on Narrative is your Reputation. Your have a Reputation Score that is based on all of the actions taken by you a bit like in The good place (On netflix!! love it). : ) remember Eleanor Shellstrop!

Anyway all content is rated based on your opinions, your reputation always influences Content Ratings.

And how your content is rated impacts your reputation. (Still with me ?)

This way your reputation reflects the actions you make, as well as how others perceive you. Your reputation is tracked over time, charted and easily seen by any user in the system.

The good news is you can improve your reputation over time and will be rewarded with Activity Points this postive cycle helps improve your stand in the overall community.

So all sinners can make it! just like Eleanor Shellstrop did After her death in The Good place! : )



With love harj x

Original Post
Emily Barnett posted:

I am curious to know, and have asked the question previously if and how our community reputation will be ported over to our Chaucer profiles, since the two are not connected.

Me too...

And while we're asking this again, I'd like to know whether the system will reflect the effort folks put into voting and commenting on niches as well?  It would be good to motivate everyone to take part in that.

Very likely not.  There will be an entirely new reputation engine in Narrative so porting over ranking from here isn't realistic and probably not fair to newbies coming into Narrative.

For example, once this first airdrop is done for Community participation we will simply reset everyone to zero to start over in phase 2.  That gives people who have joined recently a chance to join in on an equal footing.

BTW -- one very large difference between this Hoop.la ranking/ points system and Narrative is that Narrative reputation won't be an ever-growing  set of points.   And ranking won't be the point.  It will be the levels of your reputation.

I hate the following analogy but it is a good way to understand the difference.  Reputation is like a credit rating.  ( In the USA a 'credit score' is a near obsession for marketers and fintech seeking to wring the last penny out of customers).  Most places, the "credit rating"  just tells someone whether you are well employed and pay your bills on time.  Whether you can take on a loan or afford a large purchase.    Your score is established by time and behavior.  It can go up and it can go down.  You can repair it. Something serious like bankruptcy is a near-permanent hit. 

So, in the case of Chaucer, we have a crude version in place for buying niches.  If you don't pay on time, you can't bid for a while.  If you suggest niches and they are voted out, your right to suggest is suspended for a while.

Narrative reputation will be multi-faceted.  Much is behavior based.  Some derives from the esteem your community has for your behavior (trolls, take note).  An interesting algorithm we are discussing correlates your OWN rating of things against the larger community's aggregate rating. For example, if you consistently call out content or people that everyone else thinks are fine, then your reputation may fall in that quadrant  (PS. there is MUCH thought required  here so don't quote it as gospel)

All in all, the shift in the landscape of reputation is toward an economy where you think more about the good of your community and less about your score relative to others  (it's community, not competition)

Therefore @Emily Barnett  you can see why porting over THIS forums points isn't likely to make it into the beta platform.

PS.  You will ALWAYS have your titles.  Founder/Patron:  there may be a million new people on Narrative but you will always own the distinction of being here on day one ....

Michael Farris posted:

Very likely not.  There will be an entirely new reputation engine in Narrative so porting over ranking from here isn't realistic and probably not fair to newbies coming into Narrative.

I can see how ranking won't make sense in the release reputation system, but surely some of the work folks are doing here will translate into some aspect of that new system?

Speaking of fairness - I don't think newbies would be too concerned over people already having established reputations if they have been around for many months longer than them.  That's the nature of things - newcomers have to prove themselves, old timers already have.  The unfair thing would be to wipe the slate completely clean out of concern for newbies.  If we do that then we'd have to do it over and over: newbies will be coming to the platform continuously... wanting to be fair to them will mean repeatedly forgetting the reputations of those that came before them?

Michael Farris posted:

Very likely not.  There will be an entirely new reputation engine in Narrative so porting over ranking from here isn't realistic and probably not fair to newbies coming into Narrative.

For example, once this first airdrop is done for Community participation we will simply reset everyone to zero to start over in phase 2.  That gives people who have joined recently a chance to join in on an equal footing.

BTW -- one very large difference between this Hoop.la ranking/ points system and Narrative is that Narrative reputation won't be an ever-growing  set of points.   And ranking won't be the point.  It will be the levels of your reputation.

I hate the following analogy but it is a good way to understand the difference.  Reputation is like a credit rating.  ( In the USA a 'credit score' is a near obsession for marketers and fintech seeking to wring the last penny out of customers).  Most places, the "credit rating"  just tells someone whether you are well employed and pay your bills on time.  Whether you can take on a loan or afford a large purchase.    Your score is established by time and behavior.  It can go up and it can go down.  You can repair it. Something serious like bankruptcy is a near-permanent hit. 

So, in the case of Chaucer, we have a crude version in place for buying niches.  If you don't pay on time, you can't bid for a while.  If you suggest niches and they are voted out, your right to suggest is suspended for a while.

Narrative reputation will be multi-faceted.  Much is behavior based.  Some derives from the esteem your community has for your behavior (trolls, take note).  An interesting algorithm we are discussing correlates your OWN rating of things against the larger community's aggregate rating. For example, if you consistently call out content or people that everyone else thinks are fine, then your reputation may fall in that quadrant  (PS. there is MUCH thought required  here so don't quote it as gospel)

All in all, the shift in the landscape of reputation is toward an economy where you think more about the good of your community and less about your score relative to others  (it's community, not competition)

Therefore @Emily Barnett  you can see why porting over THIS forums points isn't likely to make it into the beta platform.

PS.  You will ALWAYS have your titles.  Founder/Patron:  there may be a million new people on Narrative but you will always own the distinction of being here on day one ....

Actually based on your answer @Michael Farris i don't see  the logic why porting over this forums points isn't likely...quite the opposite.

You say that your score is based on time and behavior, but then you say that to be fair to newbies everyone will be reset to zero. This seems hypocritical. So what you are saying, is that the people whom have just put in a massive amount of time to help build this community on this forum, that it just doesn't count for anything? How is that logical or fair to the people whom have dedicated resources in both time and money, to be here early?

Thinking about the good of the community is all that has been discussed on this platform. I am not at all pleased that it gets reset on April 30. and then again at launch. And I suspect most people, even those that are just starting out on here today or next month are going to be happy about that either, as they still stand to be  much farther along than anyone starts in Q4

My understanding  was that reputation building began prior to the Q4 launch. The fact that it hasn't begun is news to me. My activity on this has been motivated by two things: building Narrative by contributing to the community  dialog that is already here, the second is building my reputation.

Now I understand that my existing activity has been reduced to just a marker for calculating how much of the 200,000 NRVE tokens will be disseminated. Although that is a lovely gesture by the Narrative team, it is not what motivated my activity. I am a big picture person, I planned to be in Narrative for the long haul.  I have been demonstrating the level of activity on the community forum that I will be putting into this platform once we have the ability to post content, BECAUSE reputation matters.

Very disappointed in the reset. Very disappointed in the lack of porting. I feel this was not transparent at all. I think it is hypocritical and devaluing to your founders and patrons to reset, and then tell us that our reputation is garnered on our time and community building activity. 

WHEN REPUTATION.

I agree with Emily.

A small difference - I was aware that the ranking system would not carry over into the actual Narrative platform.

But several community members (myself included) had expressed a while back that it would make little sense if the platform launched without extracting some form of basis for reputation from the very important activity that takes place up until launch.

I had assumed that our user accounts on the main platform would indeed be credited with some form of recognition of our actions here.  I try not to assume too much in life, but I did assume this because it seems so natural that this would be the case.

 

Malkazoid posted:

I agree with Emily.

A small difference - I was aware that the ranking system would not carry over into the actual Narrative platform.

But several community members (myself included) had expressed a while back that it would make little sense if the platform launched without extracting some form of basis for reputation from the very important activity that takes place up until launch.

I had assumed that our user accounts on the main platform would indeed be credited with some form of recognition of our actions here.  I try not to assume too much in life, but I did assume this because it seems so natural that this would be the case.

 

Well I am guilty of making this assumption. However like you @Malkazoid I am wary of the pitfalls in assumption, which is why I asked this question weeks ago on another thread and got no response. Hence, I asked the question again today. I doubt I am alone in my misunderstanding.

But even if you did know, that does not dismiss the hypocrisy. If this forum was filled with fluff content, I could see why they are unwilling to assign reputation based on it. But that is not the case. The majority of the content on here is about community building and what is good for the community at large. In fact I would go so far as saying that it is only after that they started to remind people of the 200,000 NRV token that it became a bit more about generating dialog simply for points. 

If they need to keep the two platform rank/reputation separate to be fair for the token give away, then they could simple screen shot where people rank  at and figure some way of porting reputation to chaucer, prior to resetting the Community forum.

The whole argument of being fair to newbies is bubkis to me, when you say that time on the platform is a driver to reputation.

Screen Shot 2018-04-27 at 12.40.46 PM

My post asking the core team about porting reputation to Chaucer. It had six likes so clearly other people may not be clear that the reputation on the community board has nothing to do with a person's reputation on Chaucer. There was no reply from the core team, or any community member, about my question. 

I have read a lot of what has been written about Narrative including the section on the 200,000 NRVE token give away. A lot.  I did not read that the points earned on the community forum DO NOT form your reputation. It only talks about how the NRVE tokens are to be awarded. 

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I'll stay with the statement that reputation is such a different beast in Narrative that there is nowhere to plug in something like 5743 points and #18 in ranking.  Anything bodged together to try will fail and occasion complaints.  Better to start afresh.

Think of it like starting college in the fall.  All your grades and awards from high school?  Something to be proud of, of course.  But the first day of classes is the same for all.  You build your reputation in the new system from there.

Trust me when I say you have an immense advantage moving from here to Narrative.  You won't need any headstart to have a stellar reputation.

Michael Farris posted:

I'll stay with the statement that reputation is such a different beast in Narrative that there is nowhere to plug in something like 5743 points and #18 in ranking.  Anything bodged together to try will fail and occasion complaints.  Better to start afresh.

Think of it like starting college in the fall.  All your grades and awards from high school?  Something to be proud of, of course.  But the first day of classes is the same for all.  You build your reputation in the new system from there.

Trust me when I say you have an immense advantage moving from here to Narrative.  You won't need any headstart to have a stellar reputation.

@Michael Farris

I appreciate your observation, that I and others have an immense headstart.  I have been putting my energy into building my reputation on this platform, and I have been taking it away from other platforms, both centralized and decentralized, in an effort to significantly strengthen that headstart. Hence my sharp response.

Unfortunately I don't agree with your analogy. You see I am not starting "college" in Q4. I actually started "college" in Q1, and you just told me that my tuition and my grades don't count for this semester, because you don't know how to fit them into the system yet, and because you want to be fair to the new students. Perhaps you should have explained that before you accepted enrollment in Q1.

There are human ways to port the activity on the community boards over to the chaucer reputation. There are a lot of people whom have made a significant contributions here. Proving this, one only has to look at the numerous comments on telegram discussing that the best thing Narrative has going for it right now is the community. That is us. That is what the philosophy of Narrative is all about, that the strength of any social media platform, is the content we provide. The community board HAS been content for the last few months. It should be rewarded in Chaucer. And it should not be disregarded just because the code is not in place yet. 

This decision feels very hypocritical to the very messaging that Narrative is putting out.

Not good.

Hello everyone, well this was certainly a little unexpected.... I will not elaborate on fairness points because they were quite well stated by @Emily Barnett and @Malkazoid. I agree with both of you. I also didn't expect the ranking to be 100% transported to beta but I expected there would be some sort of continuity, relationship. As it was mentioned some people spent a lot of time and energy on this and it would be only natural to reward them somehow since this is kind of system that Narrative is based on.

Why to use here on community site ranks if none of them will be translated into beta and none of them will have any influence?

Personally I think this demonstrates one aspect where @Narrative Network Team should really improve in the future and it is communication. There were already numerous cases when the key information was missing. And this is not rocket science. It would suffice just to create a well arranged thread where you put all necessary information which is not presented in white paper or better yet to update the white paper. Or some other way anything.... Not knowing the full picture is not really that entertaining and then you just wait when and from where the next surprise will pop up.

No @Michael Farris we are not arguing an analogy. We are discussing the teams decision that our activity ie. the content that we have been contributing to cannot possibly be ported to our chaucer reputation. 

This is now the second time that you have dismissed me, and given me warnings to stop expressing my view point on this community forum, because they seemingly  differ from your own.

I have given nothing but thoughtful observations that are from my perspective. I have been extremely supportive of Narrative. But I am nobody's cheerleader. I have raised very valid points regarding this topic and you are simply dismissing them. With flawed analogies, at that.

I am not a troublemaker, I am merely observant, invested, and not intimidated to voice my concerns. But more and more, from your comments, I am feeling like you perceive me as such.

On this forum, I have seen other people go head strong challenging policies that cause concern for them, not once have I seen you or any of the other @Narrative Network Team ask them to take a break, or to watch their language. I am doing nothing different.

I assure you, I will not be the only person who feels sour about their rank on the community board being reset to zero on April 30, with zero attempt to port that activity over to our reputation score on Chaucer. Even if I am the only one who speaks up about.

I also assure you, I am not being loose with my use of the word hypocrisy. And I do not like being told on multiple occasions to stop talking on a platform that claims no-censorship.

@Soňa  and @Malkazoid thank you for voicing your concerns as well. I think that if the @Narrative Network Team can create a disruptor social media platform that rewards people financially for it's activity and to create a reputation system, it can surely come up with a way to credit some of the work that we have already been contributing over to our chaucer reputation, even if it is by human evaluation. It isn't hard to figure out who has been providing quality content in an effort to build the community to date. 

 

Hi all,

I just wanted to drop in and add a bit of background from a technical perspective. In order to provide context, I need to first reiterate that the platform we are using here (Hoop.la) is an online community platform. It's really nothing like what Narrative is going to be. What we are using here is a traditional discussion forum to discuss ideas and share inspiration, which is quite different from the long-form content platform Narrative will be.

Hoop.la has a primitive points and ranking model that isn't anything like reputation. The points system is purely activity based, and there's no differentiation between good actions and bad actions (hence why you see people trying to game the system by liking everything and posting one word replies). Narrative, as you know, will be much more intelligent and complex than this. There will be ways that your reputation is determined and interpreted that goes well beyond simply adding and removing points when you do things.

While we haven't put all of the finishing touches on the actual algorithm, I can tell you that at a high level, the algorithm is a series of inputs that will ultimately produce a single output: your reputation. These inputs have a variety of factors including:

  • positive activities, e.g. writing popular content and comments, up-votes, etc.
  • activities that align with the community, e.g. voting with the community, suggesting ideas that get approval such as niches and appeals, etc.
  • negative activities, e.g. writing unpopular content/comments, down-votes, etc.
  • activities that do not align with the community, e.g. voting against the community, suggesting ideas that get rejected such as niches and appeals, etc.
  • general activity / visits / reading content
  • sharing / verifying information
  • and more...

Your reputation will likely be broken down into different facets, each of which will contribute an upper limit toward your reputation.

One key component of the algorithm will be time. The value of your positive actions on the platform will naturally diminish over time. You may build up a very high reputation, but then if you disappear from the platform for a year, you will find your reputation has gone down significantly when you return. You will need to remain active in order to remain a high rep Narrator.

Take all of that together and combine it with the fact that this community is not Narrative and none of the actions here are taking place on Narrative, it's quite natural that our discussion forum points and ranking will not be ported to Narrative. "Discussion forum activity" is not a part of the reputation algorithm because Narrative simply will not have discussion forums.

On the other hand, there are factors of reputation being tracked already on Chaucer (https://alpha.narrative.network). While the full reputation system isn't in place yet, the system is tracking reputation metrics that will ultimately play into Narrative's reputation engine. So, those actions will have an impact when the platform launches. If you're someone who votes "no" on every niche (including many of which the community ultimately approves), that will definitely have a negative impact on your reputation in Narrative. Conversely, if you are a positive influencer whose votes align with the community, who pays for niches on time, and suggest good niches, that will have a positive impact on your rep.

It has never been our intent to incorporate your activity here into Narrative, and I don't see that changing. In spite of that, we wanted to cultivate an active, vibrant, and engaged community leading up to the platform launch. That's why we launched the Community Rewards program: we wanted to further incentivize (and reward!) all of you for being a part of the Narrative community at these early stages.

I'm sorry that some of you have assumed your activity on these forums would somehow be ported over to Narrative, but I don't believe anyone from the Narrative team ever implied or insinuated that they would. I would ask that you just give the system a chance to work. Once Narrative launches, you will be able to very quickly build upon your Chaucer reputation and I believe this discussion will be long forgotten.

We really appreciate all of your support and passion for Narrative, and even though I don't think this is the answer some of you are looking for, I hope you all continue to participate as you have been. You're an important part of Narrative, and we appreciate you're all here with us from the beginning.

Brian

Harj posted:

I have had to write to them (Bitebtc) to help me as I never recieve any verification email ever!!! and I have sent a few requests and checked my email inside and out! nothing

I think that you meant to post to the bitebtc topic....

Not sure what email address you are using. Those of us using GMAIL got immediate responses.  Those using HOTMAIL never got a replay at all. Not sure which you use if either of them. Can you post over to the appropriate topic and I will continue to help you. 

Brian Lenz posted:

Hi all,

I just wanted to drop in and add a bit of background from a technical perspective. In order to provide context, I need to first reiterate that the platform we are using here (Hoop.la) is an online community platform. It's really nothing like what Narrative is going to be. What we are using here is a traditional discussion forum to discuss ideas and share inspiration, which is quite different from the long-form content platform Narrative will be.

Hoop.la has a primitive points and ranking model that isn't anything like reputation. The points system is purely activity based, and there's no differentiation between good actions and bad actions (hence why you see people trying to game the system by liking everything and posting one word replies). Narrative, as you know, will be much more intelligent and complex than this. There will be ways that your reputation is determined and interpreted that goes well beyond simply adding and removing points when you do things.

While we haven't put all of the finishing touches on the actual algorithm, I can tell you that at a high level, the algorithm is a series of inputs that will ultimately produce a single output: your reputation. These inputs have a variety of factors including:

  • positive activities, e.g. writing popular content and comments, up-votes, etc.
  • activities that align with the community, e.g. voting with the community, suggesting ideas that get approval such as niches and appeals, etc.
  • negative activities, e.g. writing unpopular content/comments, down-votes, etc.
  • activities that do not align with the community, e.g. voting against the community, suggesting ideas that get rejected such as niches and appeals, etc.
  • general activity / visits / reading content
  • sharing / verifying information
  • and more...

Your reputation will likely be broken down into different facets, each of which will contribute an upper limit toward your reputation.

One key component of the algorithm will be time. The value of your positive actions on the platform will naturally diminish over time. You may build up a very high reputation, but then if you disappear from the platform for a year, you will find your reputation has gone down significantly when you return. You will need to remain active in order to remain a high rep Narrator.

Take all of that together and combine it with the fact that this community is not Narrative and none of the actions here are taking place on Narrative, it's quite natural that our discussion forum points and ranking will not be ported to Narrative. "Discussion forum activity" is not a part of the reputation algorithm because Narrative simply will not have discussion forums.

On the other hand, there are factors of reputation being tracked already on Chaucer (https://alpha.narrative.network). While the full reputation system isn't in place yet, the system is tracking reputation metrics that will ultimately play into Narrative's reputation engine. So, those actions will have an impact when the platform launches. If you're someone who votes "no" on every niche (including many of which the community ultimately approves), that will definitely have a negative impact on your reputation in Narrative. Conversely, if you are a positive influencer whose votes align with the community, who pays for niches on time, and suggest good niches, that will have a positive impact on your rep.

It has never been our intent to incorporate your activity here into Narrative, and I don't see that changing. In spite of that, we wanted to cultivate an active, vibrant, and engaged community leading up to the platform launch. That's why we launched the Community Rewards program: we wanted to further incentivize (and reward!) all of you for being a part of the Narrative community at these early stages.

I'm sorry that some of you have assumed your activity on these forums would somehow be ported over to Narrative, but I don't believe anyone from the Narrative team ever implied or insinuated that they would. I would ask that you just give the system a chance to work. Once Narrative launches, you will be able to very quickly build upon your Chaucer reputation and I believe this discussion will be long forgotten.

We really appreciate all of your support and passion for Narrative, and even though I don't think this is the answer some of you are looking for, I hope you all continue to participate as you have been. You're an important part of Narrative, and we appreciate you're all here with us from the beginning.

Brian

I think this makes a lot of sense.   Thanks for taking the time to illuminate some of the details about reputation going forward.  The people contributing a ton right now will reap the benefit through the 200k NRVE rewards....I think that is more than fair.

@Brian Lenz I appreciate you taking the time to explain this perspective. I appreciate what you are saying but here is another perspective to consider from the user's end, which imo is pretty important.

1. Yes, myself and others may have made an assumption that this forum goes to our reputation. But I have not come across where you communicate that it does not. Likewise I looked for clarification from the team on a thread that most of the core team had already posted on, so there really isn't an excuse for not responding to me. That was ten days ago. 

2. I can appreciate what you are saying, but I do feel it is splitting hairs. Your saying that superficial comments are not considered reputation worthy, and therefore difficult by nature to award reputation for, however I would argue that just be being active on this platform, at this early stage, provides a credibility that should be recognized on Narrative.   EVERY SINGLE PERSON whom has been participating on this platform to date should be getting some sort of reputation points being ported over to Chaucer; we are the front line people who will build this. It is our Niches, our networks, and our passion that is going to attract people back to Narrative for Q4. That includes the dialog that is posted on this website. When newcomers come to the Narrative Website this is the only glimpse they have of the activity of the community. They don't see Chaucer they see this. this forum is important, and it should count in our reputation.

3. I have often seen on telegram, admins use the participation of the community forum, and the quality of our discussions, as an example of what is to come with Narrative, when confronting disgruntled ico buyers whom are here for the quick flip and not the utility of the token. Using the strength of this type of discourse to prop the platform itself, feels pretty disingenuous to me now, knowing that in the eyes of the Narrative team that it was all just for a grab for a 100,000 NRVE tokens, or as Rosemary put it the price of a niche or two. My level of participation has been about reputation. Reputation awards for myself, and for the platform.

Many of us have just put a boat load of time into this forum, (many of us are very observant and posses intelligence, i might ad) thinking it would strengthen our reputation ranking, and because we felt we were working with people here who were also invested in building there reputation rank. I appreciate what you are saying here Brian, I really do.  But we haven't lost intelligence over to A.I. yet. I am certain that the team can take a snapshot of the activity points and pretty quickly make judgments on an award system based on activity and contributions people have made into the new chaucer system when it is more fully realized. 

@Michael Farris stated it was "better to start fresh" in Q4. I am not sure who he thinks it is  "better for". Certainly not the founders and patrons whom have spent hours every day contributing to a platform called Narrative both on Chaucer and on the Community board....  

 

Thanks @Emily Barnett.  You are voicing this in a way I believe represents the very natural concern every person who has been engaged in helping Narrative probably feels at this point.

@Brian Lenz - thanks for the in depth explanation.  It is helpful to know these things.  Unfortunately there is a flaw in your approach.  Fortunately (for me), it is a very easy one to communicate, so I won't have to expend too much effort doing so.  I earn more money in the real world than any NRVE reward that might come my way for this, so energy thrift has suddenly became quite relevant.

The flaw is this: you are dismissing discussion forum posts because Narrative won't have discussion forums.  Why get hung up on the discussion forum aspect? There are zero reasons to give importance to this from where I stand.  A post is a post.  These are posts that belong here just as much as they would on a Narritive niche.  Why not view this entire discussion forum as a Narrative Niche?  You can give it a name if it helps follow this reasoning.  Perhaps you could call it Narrative Genesis.  Or something like that.

This is actually a semi-serious proposition - not just a mechanism to demonstrate how unnecessary it is to view posts to this discussion forum as somehow incompatible with contributions to Narrative.  Such a niche will probably garner a fair amount of traffic over the years, for historic reasons.  In other words, it has value within the Narrative ecosystem, as well as being valuable to its formation.

Anyway, an even simpler way of putting it is that activity builds reputation.  That's part of your description of the reputation algorithm.  Posting to this community forum is activity.  Simple as that.

Even if you, for some reason, don't see the value of the above suggested niche - it does not negate that we, the first community contributors to Narrative, are conducting activity, and activity is rewarded with reputation.

The 200,000 NRVE

I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that everyone appreciates these rewards.  I personally think it was a great idea to motivate the budding community with them.

But I don't understand how this is somehow relevant to reputation being denied to activity here.  After all, on the Narrative platform that will launch in Q4, people get both financial and reputation rewards for their participation?  

The way forwards

I don't claim to know how to resolve this issue, but I do know that carrying with you the momentum of never having intended to carry any reputation forwards from activity on these forums... is not actually a solution.  It is just momentum of a previously held concept.  What I do ask of you is that the rationales and the natural and legitimate grievances felt by the community about this, be engaged with towards an outcome that adequately honours our efforts here.  

If the NRVE is the aspect you are looking at, you need to understand that for those of us who attach more importance to community service and the reputation that should come from it, granting no kind of reputation for the months of daily contributions of our best ideas and efforts is as insulting as if you decided to take away the NRVE rewards from those who are more financially motivated.  I think you can readily appreciate that there would be huge dissatisfaction if you credited everyone with their NRVE rewards, then at launch, took it all away again, "because it would be unfair to newbies."

 

 

Malkazoid posted:

 

The flaw is this: you are dismissing discussion forum posts because Narrative won't have discussion forums.  Why get hung up on the discussion forum aspect? There are zero reasons to give importance to this from where I stand.  A post is a post.  These are posts that belong here just as much as they would on a Narritive niche.  Why not view this entire discussion forum as a Narrative Niche?  You can give it a name if it helps follow this reasoning.  Perhaps you could call it Narrative Genesis.  Or something like that.

This is actually a semi-serious proposition - not just a mechanism to demonstrate how unnecessary it is to view posts to this discussion forum as somehow incompatible with contributions to Narrative.  Such a niche will probably garner a fair amount of traffic over the years, for historic reasons.  In other words, it has value within the Narrative ecosystem, as well as being valuable to its formation.  

Once again @Malkazoid we see things from a very similar vantage point. Thank you for taking the time to write this. As I said earlier in this thread, this is content. all of the community board is content. 

I believe your suggestion is very smart! If it is possible technically, all of the posts should be preserved as its own Niche and Narrative Genesis is an interesting name for it. I think you reiterate my points and expand on several of them very well. 

I am deeply insulted that no reputation is being awarded, and yes I think there would be a huge uproar if they tried the same tactic at launch with NRVE in order to be fair to newbies. 

I can't tell you how many times I have written on various posts "reputation matters" to now be told....not yet it doesn't. Why didn't any core team correct me any one of those times?

I feel really let down by Narrative right now. Firstly, because my posted content is not contributing to reputation. Secondly,  the lack of willingness to discuss possible solutions. There are a lot of very smart and solution orientated people on here, that want to see this thing work, that are being underutilized in order to maintain decisions that were made long before we showed up. 

To the @Narrative Network Team, on a constructive and technical note, I think there is probably a way of analysing the data from this discussion forum, and translating it into one or more facets of Narrative platform reputation.

The easiest, and I think smartest way, is what I proposed above: porting all of this content into a special archive niche, perhaps called Narrative Genesis.  Then run the reputation algorithm on that niche in a 'historic' mode, to compute a reputation effect from a historic database.  If the 'likes' are problematic, wipe those clean, and allow the launch community to start liking things from zero.  As an aside, this 'historic mode' would almost certainly come in handy again, for instance if changes to the reputation system need to be applied retroactively in any instance.

An alternative would be to simply ascribe the same amount of activity reputation score to all non-spammy posts.  This should be trivial to do from a technical standpoint.  Additionally, with a bit of manual elbow-grease, a 'community value' reputation facet score could be rudimentarily computed by looking at all the posts in threads with titles pointing towards matters of import to the well-being of the Narrative platform and community, and simply ascribing a fixed amount of points for each post that contributes substantively to those explorations.

I don't care that people like me would lose out quite a lot, because the depth and length of posts would not enter into the equation - I just want everyone who is actually bringing ideas to the table and weighing them, to be recognised for it.  Of course it would be more fair, and not much more effort, to ascribe one of three or four point levels to each post, based on a subjective evaluation of whether the post was only minimally valuable on the one end of the spectrum, or very thoughtful, insightful, and exhaustive on the other end of the spectrum.  But again, I'm not hoping for that - just some form of recognition for all of us who have put in the time, and are continuing to do so.  Posts like this one, and like the many others people are contributing to this thread, don't write themselves.  We are contributing to the well-being and success of Narrative, and that is precisely what the reputation system is meant to acknowledge and reflect.

But again, to me it is a no-brainer - putting the contents of this discussion forum into a Narrative niche that serves as a chronicle of our 'early settler days', is a win-win scenario. 

If the Team is indeed proud of the community, and views it as already being a central asset, and if evidence of that is offered in the form of these discussions on this forum, then we all agree that many of the contributions here represent quality content. 

If we're unwilling or unable to apply the reputation ethos of Narrative to that quality content, we are already failing in an important regard.  

If we are turning down the inclusion in the launch version of Narrative, of supremely relevant, and high quality content, then we are already failing in another important regard.

Both failures have the same solution, with plenty of upside for all.

Malkazoid posted:

Thanks @Emily Barnett.  You are voicing this in a way I believe represents the very natural concern every person who has been engaged in helping Narrative probably feels at this point.

@Brian Lenz - thanks for the in depth explanation.  It is helpful to know these things.  Unfortunately there is a flaw in your approach.  Fortunately (for me), it is a very easy one to communicate, so I won't have to expend too much effort doing so.  I earn more money in the real world than any NRVE reward that might come my way for this, so energy thrift has suddenly became quite relevant.

The flaw is this: you are dismissing discussion forum posts because Narrative won't have discussion forums.  Why get hung up on the discussion forum aspect? There are zero reasons to give importance to this from where I stand.  A post is a post.  These are posts that belong here just as much as they would on a Narritive niche.  Why not view this entire discussion forum as a Narrative Niche?  You can give it a name if it helps follow this reasoning.  Perhaps you could call it Narrative Genesis.  Or something like that.

This is actually a semi-serious proposition - not just a mechanism to demonstrate how unnecessary it is to view posts to this discussion forum as somehow incompatible with contributions to Narrative.  Such a niche will probably garner a fair amount of traffic over the years, for historic reasons.  In other words, it has value within the Narrative ecosystem, as well as being valuable to its formation.

Anyway, an even simpler way of putting it is that activity builds reputation.  That's part of your description of the reputation algorithm.  Posting to this community forum is activity.  Simple as that.

Even if you, for some reason, don't see the value of the above suggested niche - it does not negate that we, the first community contributors to Narrative, are conducting activity, and activity is rewarded with reputation.

The 200,000 NRVE

I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that everyone appreciates these rewards.  I personally think it was a great idea to motivate the budding community with them.

But I don't understand how this is somehow relevant to reputation being denied to activity here.  After all, on the Narrative platform that will launch in Q4, people get both financial and reputation rewards for their participation?  

The way forwards

I don't claim to know how to resolve this issue, but I do know that carrying with you the momentum of never having intended to carry any reputation forwards from activity on these forums... is not actually a solution.  It is just momentum of a previously held concept.  What I do ask of you is that the rationales and the natural and legitimate grievances felt by the community about this, be engaged with towards an outcome that adequately honours our efforts here.  

If the NRVE is the aspect you are looking at, you need to understand that for those of us who attach more importance to community service and the reputation that should come from it, granting no kind of reputation for the months of daily contributions of our best ideas and efforts is as insulting as if you decided to take away the NRVE rewards from those who are more financially motivated.  I think you can readily appreciate that there would be huge dissatisfaction if you credited everyone with their NRVE rewards, then at launch, took it all away again, "because it would be unfair to newbies."

 

 

@Malkazoid, as a fellow founder, I never thought that we were currently accruing reputation points during this phase.  My understanding was always that reputation will be important once we officially launch.  To be honest, I thought you and @Emily Barnett were just going after the NRVE rewards during this trial period based on all of the activity I've been seeing / and were just super pumped about the project.

  Please try not to take this the wrong way, but I feel like what is really coming across in these posts is that 'we put in a lot of time we could have been doing something else earning a real paycheck so we should be compensated better'.  I think that was the whole point of the NRVE rewards, to compensate people for helping jump start the alpha.  If you feel that isn't enough compensation, fair enough. 

    I personally am not against the idea of creating a Niche like you suggested, and having the Narrative team port all of these 'posts', as original content pieces into that niche and have all of the comments ported as well.  I think it would be an interesting source of history.  This would also allow you to potentially get some compensation based on views / interactions once we go live so it wouldn't just be dead forgotten content.

@Narrative Network Team@Brian Lenz

A simple proposal for a Narrative Genesis niche.

1) Each first post from this discussion forum site could be set up as a post in the niche.  All subsequent posts in that thread could be ported as comments to that initial post.

2) Posts and comments could be likeable by members after launch, whether the likes from this forum are included in the ported Narrative Genesis niche or not.  The ultimate, if technically feasible, would be to have historic likes shown, but not necessarily used in any computation, and then active Narrative platform likes also shown in a more vibrant way, next to that.  The historic likes could be labeled as just that 'Historic likes'.  But this should not be viewed as, or construed as a hurdle to making this niche - if it is a problem, it doesn't need to be done.

3) Historic threads could allow new comments from the narrative community after launch, possibly distinguished by a dividing line in the stream separating pre-launch and post-launch content, and/or a different color/style to the headers of post-launch comments.

4) New, post-launch threads could be started to discuss various historic aspects of the genesis of Narrative.

5) This niche could be a special kind of niche, with no owner.  The 10% owner network reward for that niche could be split between all historic participants in these discussions, pro-rated to word count.  Content creator rewards could behave the same way they do for other niches, for post-launch contributors to the niche.

Benefits

1) Narrative launches with substantially more quality content than if this content is not included.

2) The participants in these formative community discussions are properly recognised for the content they have created, and are continuing to create

3) Narrative continues to embody the ideals it set forth in its white paper.

4) The historic value could be truly substantial, and would be proportional to the success of Narrative.  If Narrative becomes the most prominent social network, or even just one of the top five, people would find value in the genesis of its community, potentially for decades to come, and these materials may be examined and discussed in academic circles.  A success story of decentralised community building would be a fascinating case study, with relevance to a number of parallel endeavours towards decentralised economies and governance.  I'm not certain there are very many other such initiatives out there that are accumulating such an exhaustive public record of their genesis.  This should be valued.

5) For the remainder of the pre-launch period (at least a good 5 months left), members have the added incentive to provide truly valuable contributions to these forums.  They will be galvanised by the knowledge that they are already creating actual Narrative Content.  Not just for a share of one-time NRVE air-drop, but for a share of a niche that will endure.  But more importantly, not just for NRVE, but for the for the beginnings of their reputation on the platform.  We're all chomping at the bit to do just that: create actual Narrative Content, and prove to each other our enthusiasm, belief in and commitment to the success of Narrative.  Right now, we have 5 months before we can start doing that, but it doesn't have to be that way.  We should use this motivation, and channel it into enhancing what we are doing now, by defining it as actual Narrative Content that generates reputation. 

This last, fifth point is certainly not the least of these benefits.

 

Banter posted:
Please try not to take this the wrong way, but I feel like what is really coming across in these posts is that 'we put in a lot of time we could have been doing something else earning a real paycheck so we should be compensated better'.  I think that was the whole point of the NRVE rewards, to compensate people for helping jump start the alpha.  If you feel that isn't enough compensation, fair enough. 

Don't worry - I'm not taking it the wrong way.  I know in my case, and I strongly suspect in Emily's case, that you are simply incorrect.  Being wrong is not insulting to me

I think I've articulated already that the important thing is to properly motivate people, to not miss good opportunities for the network, and to act in accordance with Narrative principles.  Actions speak louder than words, in the end - and the actions of doomed ventures, in hindsight, always herald their demise, regardless of what their words claimed.  Likewise for success stories.

If NRVE is the only proper motivation on Narrative, then we might as well be Steemit.

We all aspire to be more than Steemit, and doing that means people having a sense of community service.  Not only because they are getting paid, but because they care about the quality of content on Narrative, and want it to be run in a way that is fair, smooth, and leads to a successful network for all.

That's the core of our contributions to these forums.  It would take a special kind of foolish for me to see a relatively small NRVE reward as more important than the success of Narrative.  Even in purely material forms, a successful Narrative platform will net me hundreds of times more NRVE than these initial community forum awards.

The success of Narrative will come from us all making a long string of successful decisions to foster and maintain the right community spirit - it is, and will continue to be our greatest strength, but also our greatest weakness.  If we destroy it, or betray it, it will be lost.

Central to this community spirit is reputation.  It isn't just about my reputation: I want everyone to put forth their best in the next 5 months before launch because they care about their reputation.  The success of the platform relies on this, so to remove that component from the cumulative thousands of 'person hours' the community will have put in by launch time seems to be a terrible mistake to me.

I hope this is now clear to you, just as I hope my track record of posting substantive posts should tell you clearly I'm not just here for the NRVE.  I don't think there is any benefit to posting posts that take me 30-45 minutes to write, as opposed to ones that take 5 minutes.  It actually puts me at a distinct disadvantage, because someone else can post 5-10 posts in the time I take to post one.  Think about it.

 

    I personally am not against the idea of creating a Niche like you suggested, and having the Narrative team port all of these 'posts', as original content pieces into that niche and have all of the comments ported as well.  I think it would be an interesting source of history.  This would also allow you to potentially get some compensation based on views / interactions once we go live so it wouldn't just be dead forgotten content.

Fantastic - I'm glad you see the value!

Hi,

 

Reputation:

All the founders and patrons have spent months building the base layer-the core--the niches.  Those that were most involved rose in the ranks and lead the way--The top 10-15 really did this. Harj, Emily, Malkazoid, and a few others really have given it their all.   

 

NOW I see we won't get this hard earned reputation, it will not transfer to the final edition of narrative.  The newbie should not factor in this decision because they did not give money to narrative.  They did not give the cash that will be used to grow the network.

The reputation scores need to be transferred and never reset.  Simple.

BITEBTC-

 

I am saying this to all the new crypto people on here.  I am saying it to be honest and because I don't want people to loose money.  

This is the smallest exchange I've ever seen.  Today the volume in the btc/usd chart topped at 18 btc total 24 hour volume.  And now it is 12 btc.  THE entire exchange has about 12 coins , 4 dead listings , and a total 24 hour volume avg. around 120 btc.  This is so low it makes no sense.  NO volume, no liquidity, means a serious dump can and will occur when frustrated a bag holder gets on BITEBTC>. but they may not go there why???

 

Because it is an exchange that is not listed on CMC. RED FLAG

 

NO go. DO not send your personal KYC info there.  NO picture of your passport, ID , etc.

 

 

And wake up team this is a bad look, today you upset all factions, bag holders, builders, and the poor kids that wanted to flip for a lambo.

 

Peace,

Whit

Whitmal posted:

Hi,

Reputation:

All the founders and patrons have spent months building the base layer-the core--the niches.  Those that were most involved rose in the ranks and lead the way--The top 10-15 really did this. Harj, Emily, Malkazoid, and a few others really have given it their all.   

Thanks Whitmal - I think I can safely say we all want to see Narrative succeed, and we've simply understood that that success requires our hard work, not just when the platform launches, but just as importantly, now.

NOW I see we won't get this hard earned reputation will not transfer to the final edition of narrative.  The newbie should not factor in this decision because they did not give money to narrative.  They did not give the cash that will be used to grow the network.

The reputation scores need to be transferred and never reset.  Simple.

I'm glad you feel the same way!

BITEBTC-

I am saying this to all the new crypto people on here.  I am saying it to be honest and because I don't want people to loose money.  

This is the smallest exchange I've ever seen.  Today the volume in the etc/usd chart topped at 18 btc total 24 hour volume.  And now it is 12 btc.  THE entire exchange has about 12 coins , 4 dead listings , and a total 24 hour volume avg. around 120 btc.  This is so low it makes no sense.  NO volume, no liquidity, means a serious dump can and will occur when frustrated a bag holder gets on BITEBTC>. but they may not go there why???

Because it is an exchange that is not listed on CMC. RED FLAG

NO go. DO not send your personal KYC info there.  NO picture of your passport, ID , etc.

Thanks - this is valuable information and hopefully will start a good conversation on the matter.  May I suggest you paste that into a new thread so it can be fully explored there?

I know very little about crypto exchanges, and there are no doubt others like me so your input is important.  But I do know enough to know that choosing the wrong exchanges can have important and damaging consequences.

I'm sure it's not easy to get listed on the best exchanges - every coin and their pet hamster is probably petitioning those for inclusion.  I hope we strike the right balance!  Narrative's charisma should give us a calling card that gets us on something at least semi-decent.  Neo has some magnetism, and Narrative itself has made a positive impression.  Our token is one that has a real world application within a viable proposal for an economy that answers real world problems, and a dedicated community is already forming to support its development.

Well done @Malkazoid i would also like to add that there is plenty of money raised in both the initial ICO and the niche purchase that the team could hire someone on contract to actually port this content over to his suggested ownerless niche, prior to the launch of beta. And a further suggestion -- the money that is raised from this ownerless niche could be set aside as a contingency fund for any legal costs that arise, or for the first Narrative Conference.

Honestly, the teams stance that has been taken on this topic is just baffling to me. The whole reason that we are here, is that Narrative believes that content makers should be rewarded financially, and with reputation for their content. Ok, so you have acknowledge that it is content, because you have come up with an abridged reward system, but have abstained from the reputation. Not cool..

If Narrative establishes that our thoughts and writing IS our content then how can all of our thoughts and writing on this particular forum be seen as ANYTHING but content? To suggest that because it is on this side of the Narrative website and not on the other side, therefore it isn't content is hypocrisy. 

Especially when it is being held up for the public to read. 

@Banter Malkazoid is correct. I was not posting with the frequency that I have been,  to win NRVE tokens. I am working as a full time content maker. I see Narrative as part of my big picture. I rent a 4000 square foot studio that I am beginning to make videos in. I have a team of people from fashion photographers, to writers, to visual arts that I hope to get involved. My time here right now is ALL about my reputation. And I shall be relentless in maintain the position that we should all be earning reputation, right now. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince me otherwise.

This speaks to the HEART of Narrative's success. Respect for the contributors of this social media platform. That begins by listening to what they have to say. Today i don't feel that happened.

Whitmal posted:

Hi,

 

Reputation:

All the founders and patrons have spent months building the base layer-the core--the niches.  Those that were most involved rose in the ranks and lead the way--The top 10-15 really did this. Harj, Emily, Malkazoid, and a few others really have given it their all.   

 

NOW I see we won't get this hard earned reputation, it will not transfer to the final edition of narrative.  The newbie should not factor in this decision because they did not give money to narrative.  They did not give the cash that will be used to grow the network.

The reputation scores need to be transferred and never reset.  Simple.

BITEBTC-

 

I am saying this to all the new crypto people on here.  I am saying it to be honest and because I don't want people to loose money.  

This is the smallest exchange I've ever seen.  Today the volume in the btc/usd chart topped at 18 btc total 24 hour volume.  And now it is 12 btc.  THE entire exchange has about 12 coins , 4 dead listings , and a total 24 hour volume avg. around 120 btc.  This is so low it makes no sense.  NO volume, no liquidity, means a serious dump can and will occur when frustrated a bag holder gets on BITEBTC>. but they may not go there why???

 

Because it is an exchange that is not listed on CMC. RED FLAG

 

NO go. DO not send your personal KYC info there.  NO picture of your passport, ID , etc.

 

 

And wake up team this is a bad look, today you upset all factions, bag holders, builders, and the poor kids that wanted to flip for a lambo.

 

Peace,

Whit

Just looked at Bitebtc again.

 

They want you to send a picture of a recent bill.   NO GO!   I can't stress this enough people.  If you send all that information to them then you are trusting a No name exchange with all the information a hacker would need to steal your identity.    

 

Edited due to oversight.  Apologies to team.  I think Switheo is soon.  Just wait. 

 

Screen Shot 2018-04-29 at 6.23.53 AM

Dear @Narrative Network Team

I have been waiting for a response from you on this important thread. I have even attempted to prompt a response, over on telegram. Time is ticking on this thread; the reset is imminent. The team's radio silence is deafening! This raises even bigger concerns for me.

Given the likes and comments on this page, the articulate commenting, and the private messages I have been receiving, I think it is fair to say a strong cross section of the community is not happy about the lack of reputation being applied for the content we have all contributed on the community page.

The reasoning that has been offered, for not porting any reputation over to our chaucer profile, is because it doesn't fit in to the reputation system in a neat and tidy way...that some people will complain. So your solution is to devalue everyone!?

At this moment I am still on board with 2 feet firmly on the deck of the ship called Narrative. But like @Whitmal I believe this team needs to wake up, if you want to navigate this ship from the tight confines of the harbor, out to sea.

You have pretty much disappointed every type of investor that you have this past week. The team has reserved 20,000,000 NRV coins for itself and expects to make more money from the non-crypto's exchange rate to fiat, that we all bring into the system with our initial niches. I support that ratio, but I assure you, it will not be easy. We have  expectations for the money we have given you in trust, to get this thing going. And your tokens are meaningless if they don't have value, our words give it the value.  Making decisions like you did on Friday,"best to reset", simply because it is  the best option for you guys, is not going to cut it. It just won't. 

I have posted the above screenshot taken from the Narrative website. This decision to not figure out a way to port the reputation that we have all been building over to chaucer platform is arbitrarily being enforced.  A solution has been suggested that could work, and so far it appears to have been ignored by you. This is a pivotal moment for Narrative to demonstrate what kind of platform it truly is, and if it really does practice what it states. That it puts the control in the hands of the community. So far I see only moderate evidence of that.

Members of the community have spoken that we want more control on this decision and you are, to date publically ignoring that, and warning me specifically, not to speak about it while using the word hypocrisy. From a customer stand point that is a very bad move. From a communication standpoint it is a very bad move.  From an investors standpoint that is a very bad move.

Waiting for a response.

Emily

Attachments

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My guess is the Team is discussing this.  With the intensity of feelings about this matter, it may feel as if more time has elapsed than actually has - @Michael Farris only posted 2 days ago that reputation would not be earned.

And I introduced the idea of porting these discussions to a niche on the definitive platform, only 2 days ago.

Add to this that about 80-90 percent of that 2 day period has been over a weekend, and I think there is a pretty good chance that the silence is still within the realm of reason.

Like you I am hoping for a response, and I believe there will be one.

Fingers crossed, we'll all put aside any ruffled feathers and make the best call for the network.  I continue to believe that is best served by not throwing away this high quality, formative Narrative community content.  Instead we should harness it as good content for the Narrative Network itself.  We're building a Ready To Rock niche.  We should have very powerful arguments to back up a decision not to use it.  If we do use it, those of us creating this formative content would naturally enjoy the corresponding reputation effects of our content's activity on that future, special niche.

I have faith the idea will be considered on its merits once the Team has been able to carve out time in their schedule to put their heads together about it.  Again, fingers crossed?

Malkazoid posted:

My guess is the Team is discussing this.  With the intensity of feelings about this matter, it may feel as if more time has elapsed than actually has - @Michael Farris only posted 2 days ago that reputation would not be earned.

And I introduced the idea of porting these discussions to a niche on the definitive platform, only 2 days ago.

Add to this that about 80-90 percent of that 2 day period has been over a weekend, and I think there is a pretty good chance that the silence is still within the realm of reason.

Like you I am hoping for a response, and I believe there will be one.

Fingers crossed, we'll all put aside any ruffled feathers and make the best call for the network.  I continue to believe that is best served by not throwing away this high quality, formative Narrative community content.  Instead we should harness it as good content for the Narrative Network itself.  We're building a Ready To Rock niche.  We should have very powerful arguments to back up a decision not to use it.  If we do use it, those of us creating this formative content would naturally enjoy the corresponding reputation effects of our content's activity on that future, special niche.

I have faith the idea will be considered on its merits once the Team has been able to carve out time in their schedule to put their heads together about it.  Again, fingers crossed?

I hope so. with 9pm only nine hours away...I really hope so. My husband always tells me "Emily, you are the most patient, impatient person I know." lol.

Emily Barnett posted:

I hope so. with 9pm only nine hours away...I really hope so. My husband always tells me "Emily, you are the most patient, impatient person I know." lol.

I guess that's the other awesome thing about porting all this content to a niche on the platform: the decision to do so can be made well after any reset might take place - with no harm done.  As long as all of this isn't thrown away, the reputation algorithms get applied to it at launch.

Any reset of current activity points needs have no bearing...

Every way I look at it, using all of this formative content on Narrative is an intuitive solution to multiple problems, including the difficulty of influencing the Team's momentum at the 11th hour.

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